I'll run Shredder for a few hours and post its conclusions about 13...Qc7 here a bit later. It doesn't seem like there's much discussion going on at all about any of Black's variations right now, but what little there is, is dominated by 13...Nxd3 and 13...Bd7. maybe it's to do with Elista.

click for larger view

Analysis by Shredder 10 (20 ply complete):

1. ±(1.05): 14.f4 Nxd3 15.cxd3 Bd7 16.Bb6 Qb8 17.e5 Nh5 18.Rac1 Bc6 19.Nd4 Bd7 20.Qe3

2. ±(1.05): 14.Bb6 Qb8 15.f4 Nxd3 16.cxd3 Bd7 17.e5 Nh5 18.Rac1 Bc6 19.Nd4 Bd7 20.Qe3

3. ±(0.89): 14.Rac1 Bd7 15.f4 Nxd3 16.cxd3 Qb8 17.Bb6 Bc6 18.f5

I won't post the variations.

User: RandomVisitor 's Rybka agrees f4 is the strongest lines, having spaketh thus:

(0.27): 13...Qc7 14.f4 Nxd3 15.cxd3 Bd7 16.Bb6 Qb8 17.e5 Nh5 18.g4 Ng7 19.Ne4 Ne8 20.Rac1

<OhioChessFan: <Interestingm wrt OhioChessFan's comment. After 17 minutes and 15-ply, Fritz9 also prefers Rxd3 in the line with Rd1, to which it gives the top spot at +1.06: 14. Rad1 Nxc3 15. Rxc3 Bc6 16. Bd4 Rc8 17. Qe3 Qe8 ... >

Ok <dalbertz> that is the first computer line that I've seen choose Rxd3. The problem with Rf-d1 is that GMAN isn't obliged to play Nxd3. I think he will. I don't think enough people are persuaded of that to make Rd1 a viable voting option though.

<Roofile> I have played around with that line myself. It's a decent option. But it's still predicated on Nxd3. I would not be willing to play f4 to force that, if that gives you any idea of what I think of f4.>

<azaris: <14. Rad1 Nxc3 15. Rxc3 Bc6 16. Bd4 Rc8 17. Qe3 Qe8??> Or you could just not gambit a pawn with 17...e5 or 17...Nd7.>

I put azaris' improvement (e5) into Fritz9, let it crank for a while and then backtracked to the current position to see how it re-evaluated things. After 15 minutes and 16-ply it now gives the nod to f4, but Rad1 is a close second still with recapture by the rook:

Analysis by Fritz 9:

1. ± (1.02): 14.f4 Nxd3 15.Qxd3 Bc6 16.f5 Rc8 17.Bh6 Re8 18.fxg6 fxg6 19.Rad1 Qd7 20.Qd4

2. ± (0.96): 14.Rad1 Bc6 15.Bd4 Nxd3 16.Rxd3 Rc8 17.f4 Nd7 18.f5 Bg5 19.Qg4 e5 20.Be3

3. ± (0.93): 14.Rac1 Bc6 15.Bb6 Qe8 16.Bd4 Nxd3 17.cxd3 Nd7

IMO, the correct combination of rook moves is Rac1 and Rfd1. And playing Rac1 before Rfd1 is more flexible, because the rook on f1 might already be on the right place.

But this does not mean that we should play Rac1 immediately. I think that White can start action with 14. f4 without further preparation. And then some moves later it might be a lot easier to see where to put the rooks. Also there is a question of the support for the a-pawn.

<ajile> says: I also think we need to get a rook to d1 now since f4 now and the Knight x Bishop then QxN. But if we have a rook on d1 we can recapture with the rook which is much better for putting pressure down the d file. The logical choice is Rf1 to Rd1 and here's why: We have the forcing move Na4 which practically forces Black to exchange BxN. The after RxB the a file rook is perfectly placed to go to d4 from a4 and combine with the Rd1 to put pressure down the d file. We can't lose sight of the real theme here. The positional advantage is our half open d file and Black's potentially weak d pawn. Moves such as f4 NxB, cd take awy our advantage IMO. With Rfd1 we follow a logical plan to build pressure on Black's position and also prevent Black's main freeing move d5. After Rfd1 we can still play f4 and hope he exchanges his only developed piece for our white squared bishop which is really just acting like a pawn now. We also retain the otion of tripling up on the d file with Qd2 at some point. So the plan is: RfD1 to setup the recapture on d3 with a rook. Nc3-a4 forcing the exchange Bd7xNa4 and RaxB. And f4 at some point to dislodge the Ne5. Black's position is solid but cramped. Let's keep it that way and play for our natural advantage on the d file and Q-side.

<Azaris> says:
I like the bishop where it's flexible, on e3 or maybe d4 or even g5 or h6 at some point. If 14.f4 is too committal, then we should go for 14.f3 or 14.Rfd1. These pose little problems for Black but so does everything else we've come up so far.

<ajile> says: Here are some other interesting points. After Rfd1 we can play f4 putting the question to the Knight. If he declines NxB and plays Nc6 then we can play Na4 with the threat of Nb6. If he does play NxB then we have RxN and the nice position I mentioned earlier. In this line we can now play the rook lift to a4 and then Rd4 since there is no Black Knight attacking the square d4.

<RookFile> says in response to the above post: I considered this idea. Let's say you play 14. Rfd1, and black plays the straightforward ...Nxd3 anyway, and you reply 15. Rxd3, and black goes 15....Bc6

The first point is: 16. Na4 doesn't work, black has 16.....Bb5.

Second: If you go 16. Rad1, black equalizes on the spot with 16.... Nxe4!

Third: Let's say you throw 16. Bb6 Qe8 17. Rad1 in here. Now.... 17...Bb5 18. Nxb5 Qxb5 looks fine for black.

<islero> says: Not that I have spent a great deal of time here but I like the quiet <14.Rad1> with the "wait-and-see" approach. What is black going to do here?

<kinghunt72> says: This is what i see: 14. Rad1 Rc8 15. f4 Nxd3 16. Rxd3 e5 17. fxe5 dxe5 18. Qd2 Bb4 19. Bb6 Qe7 20. Rxf6 Qxf6 21. Rxd7 Qc6 22. Nd5 This gives us a huge advatge: we now have two minor pieces for just a rook, a big space advantage, and we leave an awkward position for Black. Better yet, black can't play 22... Qxd7 because we can win the queen with 23. Nf6+.

<phi> says: me too, and that's why I voted for Rad1. Black has problems anyway and Rad1 gives the possibility to capture with the rook on d3, which could be better than cxd3 or Qxd3 in some variations. IMO we shouldn't play Bb6 and/or f4 before we can see something concrete.

<thorsson> says in response to the above post: I haven't seen any Rad1 voter explain what they want to play after 14...Bc6.

<phi> says in response to the above post: Actually, I don't see a problem with 14...Bc6. White could play 15.Bb6 and I don't know what's wrong with 14.Rad1. After 15...Qb8 for example 16.f4 Nxd3 Rxd3, or maybe there are even better moves for white.

<thorsson> says in response to the above post:

The 'Thorsson Effect', eh? Abrasive, and then some, but I think he's mellowed slightly. And he does take the time to explain obvious errors to people, albeit dismissively. I know he's caused two regulars - Tomlinsky and Monad - to storm off in annoyance for a while. And he probably inhibits others from saying anything at all.

But he's probably our best player/analyst. Top three, certainly. I know he's better than me.

It's a very Bush situation, in a sense, with us posing as Dubya. A repressive dictator or a friend of democracy? Send in the money men or the hit squads? "He may be a bastard, but he's _our_ bastard."

It's 2am here now, and I've been up since the previous 6am. We're all going a little crazy. Maybe you're right, the game will quickly reduce to a hardcore following who are really interested. 400 - 300 - 200 - 100? We shall see.

First, my plea to the 'silent majority' produced 6 or 7 good replies; all said they read as much as they could, forums included, before voting.

Second, Thorsson (!!) suggested on the main page that Forums were now really useful, and important for maybe the first time in the game. So I agreed with him, said we'd do our best, and added that - to make the process more democratic - instead of just announcing forums we'd canvass opinions first. And I threw it open...

I haven't talked to twinlark about this, btw - he doesn't seem to be around right now - but it seemed the best thing to do.

No, I can't see that this would work. I see your aim - it's to infiltrate the ballot itself, rather than just make a splash on the kibitzing - but my guess is that people just wouldn't understand it. They'd think 'more jokers', or whatever...

You know those posts that still come up saying 'are computers allowed?' or 'f4 attacks a piece'. I do my best to be gentle with them - give a straight answer, hope they're latecomers/beginners who will listen and learn. I'd hate to do anything that would alienate folk - I think there's already a (small) subcurrent of resentment over our 'elitist' forums, and I don't want to encourage it. That was one reason I asked for 'democratic' input earlier.

And they're not all as immersed in the thing as we are. I have a feeling that gesture politics would be a turn-off.

Would you believe me if I told you that I have never heard an Elvis's song in my whole life? Well, I haven't.

Would you please be so kind as to recommend me his 5 most popular songs?