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OhioChessFan
Member since Apr-09-05 · Last seen Jan-16-26
______________ Moves Prediction Contest

<Main Focus>: Predicting how many moves in a game for each pairing.

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http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...

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Live games:
http://www.nrk.no/sport/sjakk/

Alternative live games: http://worldchess.com/broadcasts/eu...

***Hall of Fame***
chessmoron chessforum

<Format>:

[player]-[player] [result] [# of MOVES]

==4 Different Scoring Methods==

Standard Moves Ranker (1st place-Over[3pts], 1st place-Under [7pts], Exact [10pts])

Bonus Ranker (3rd place-Over[1pts],2nd place-Over[2pts],3rd place-Under [5pts], 2nd place-Under [6pts]

Standard Moves/Bonus Ranker [Add all to together]

1st place Ranker [how many 1st place you have in Standard Moves Ranker]

For example:

<Note: Participants 3, 4, and 5 are predicated on nobody scoring an exact as Participant 2 did. If someone hits an exact, the closest score under and over will score the points for second place.>

Actual Game: [player]-[player] 0-1 45

Participant 1: [player]-[player] 1/2 45
Participant 2: [player]-[player] 0-1 45
Participant 3: [player]-[player] 0-1 44
Participant 4: [player]-[player] 0-1 43
Participant 5: [player]-[player] 0-1 46

Participant 1: No points even though 45 is correct. Results must be correct. If Result is wrong and moves # is correct...you get no points whatsoever

Participant 2: 10 pts rewarded for correct Result/moves #

Participant 3: 7 pts rewarded for closest under (1st-Under) to 45 moves

Participant 4: 6 pts rewarded for the 2nd closest under (2nd-Under) to 45 moves.

Participant 5: 3 pts rewarded closest OVER(1st-OVER) to 45 moves.

Again, the description of Participant 3, 4, and 5 are based on there being no exact prediction as made by Participant 2.

<IF> there is an exact or an under closest, the highest scoring over participant will be 2nd over. The second closest over will be 3rd over. The <ONLY> time there will be a first over is if there is no exact or under winner.

Things To Look At:
1. Game Collection: 1975 World Junior chess championship
2. Ongoing edits Vladimir Ostrogsky
3. Bio Adolf Zytogorski
4. Complete the Olympiad
5. Bio Lorenz Maximilian Drabke

7. Baden-Baden (1870)

11. Karl Mayet
12. Smbat Lputian

Pi Day
rreusser/computing-with-the-bailey-borwein-plouffe-formula">https://observablehq.com/(at)rreusser/...

Pun Index Game Collection: Game of the Day & Puzzle of the Day Collections

>> Click here to see OhioChessFan's game collections.

Chessgames.com Full Member
   Current net-worth: 792 chessbucks
[what is this?]

   OhioChessFan has kibitzed 49566 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Jan-16-26 Chessgames - Politics (replies)
 
OhioChessFan: <rdb: I disappear for a few days, and <the integrity> turns this forum into his playground of mediocrity? Pathetic. Without me here, he struts around like a wannabe king—yet everyone can see he’s just a jester tripping over his own words. The truth is, <the ...
 
   Jan-15-26 Julien Song (replies)
 
OhioChessFan: 90 minute games today and tomorrow. Next day the rapids. Fourth day the blitz. Am I the only one with no audio on the chess.com stream?
 
   Jan-15-26 Chessgames - Music
 
OhioChessFan: Do yourself a favor and spend three minutes listening to this nice flute driven piece. Nestor Torres-Cute https://youtu.be/Eor1meJSZPs?si=duk...
 
   Jan-14-26 Kibitzer's Café (replies)
 
OhioChessFan: <kl: Today for the first time ever I played a vlack knight to c8> I'm impressed you could keep up with that fact.
 
   Jan-14-26 C Gilberg vs Dickson, 1866 (replies)
 
OhioChessFan: <sfod: <jn> couldn't even grant a one-day reprieve for us before he *ruined* the original pun! Talk about raining on the parade.> Thought the same thing.
 
   Jan-13-26 J Krejcik vs J Thirring, 1898
 
OhioChessFan: "Thirring Victory"
 
   Jan-10-26 J Cesena vs J Dyke, 1979 (replies)
 
OhioChessFan: Terrific pun.
 
   Jan-09-26 Milwaukee Chess Club vs Charles City Chess Club, 1876
 
OhioChessFan: 15. Rd1 is a wasted tempo. I assume White was trying to outnumber the defenders of d5 but missed the skewer Qc6. In any case, as <tsv> said years ago, the Rook needs to stay on the f file.
 
   Jan-08-26 Shabalov vs E Tate, 1998 (replies)
 
OhioChessFan: Okay, strained, but nice.
 
   Jan-08-26 Sergei Prokofiev
 
OhioChessFan: Cinderella's Waltz https://youtu.be/YbaY7p5ahZo?featur... A quick (three minutes) but nice listen.
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

Moves Prediction Contest

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 803 OF 849 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-25-21  paavoh: Happy Thanksgiving all! Good to see many familiar names predicting! This is my first time trying this format with # moves included, so here goes:

G1 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 44
G2 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 52
G3 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 32
G4 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 49
G5 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 35
G6 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 55
G7 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 38
G8 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 68
G9 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 42
G10 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 37
G11 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 77
G12 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 65
G13 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 36

Nov-25-21  diceman: Happy Thanksgiving

G1 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 75
G2 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 45
G3 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 62
G4 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 63
G5 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 37
G6 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 68
G7 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 38
G8 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 42
G9 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 64
G10 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 54
G11 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 50
G12 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 31
G13 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 50
G14 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 50

Nov-25-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: < chessmoron >

Thank you, reposting:

G1: Nepomniachtchi - Carlsen 1/2-1/2 40
G2: Carlsen - Nepomniachtchi 1/2-1/2 40
G3: Nepomniachtchi - Carlsen 1/2-1/2 40
G4: Carlsen - Nepomniachtchi 1/2-1/2 40
G5: Nepomniachtchi - Carlsen 1/2-1/2 40
G6: Carlsen - Nepomniachtchi 1/2-1/2 40
G7: Nepomniachtchi - Carlsen 1/2-1/2 40
G8: Carlsen - Nepomniachtchi 1/2-1/2 40
G9: Carlsen - Nepomniachtchi 1/2-1/2 40
G10: Nepomniachtchi - Carlsen 1/2-1/2 40
G11: Carlsen - Nepomniachtchi 1/2-1/2 40
G12: Nepomniachtchi - Carlsen 1/2-1/2 40
G13: Carlsen - Nepomniachtchi 1/2-1/2 40

If the pairings change again, well, pretty obvious what my predictions would be.

Nov-25-21  whiteshark: G1 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 30
G2 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 55
G3 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 35
G4 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 60
G5 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 40
G6 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 65
G7 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 45
G8 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 80
G9 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 70
G10 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 55
G11 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 80
G12 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 70
G13 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 60
G14 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 75

<alfamikewhiskey>: G13 + G14 are missing here; the same goes for <paavoh>: G14

Nov-25-21  alfamikewhiskey: Thanks <whiteshark>

But I predict that Carlsen will have 6,5 pts after G11.

Assuming (as I do) he wins G12, there will be no G13 or G14, I believe.

Cf. Regulations for the FIDE World Championship Match 2021, § 4. 3. 1.:

<The player who scores 7.5 points or more wins the World Championship Match. No further games are played.>

<https://handbook.fide.com/files/han...>

Nov-25-21  alfamikewhiskey: <paavoh>'s predictions may be based on this, too.
Nov-25-21  whiteshark: <alfamikewhiskey:> The point goes to you!

Under this criterion <jfq> would be finished already after game 11, although I secretly wish that her prediction for game 13 would come true. ;)

Nov-25-21  Golden Executive: Hi everyone!

G1 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 33
G2 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 40
G3 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 38
G4 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 50
G5 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 40
G6 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 46
G7 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 38
G8 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 42
G9 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 40
G10 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 40
G11 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 56
G12 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 44
G13 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 40

Nov-26-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan:  

G1 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 28
G2 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 50
G3 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1-0 20
G4 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 47
G5 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 40
G6 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 35
G7 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 42
G8 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 46
G9 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 41
G10 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 38
G11 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 44
G12 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 32
G13 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 53
G14 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 45

Nov-26-21  WinKing: Good luck to all!

G1 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 35
G2 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 40
G3 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 43
G4 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 54
G5 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 40
G6 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 38
G7 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 32
G8 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 45
G9 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 40
G10 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1-0 43
G11 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1/2 51
G12 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1-0 50
G13 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 58
G14 Nepomniachtchi-Carlsen 1/2 49

Nov-26-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: The match has started, quite a while ago.
Nov-26-21  paavoh: Yes <alfamikewhiskey>, you're right. <<paavoh>'s predictions may be based on this, too>
Dec-01-21  chessmoron: ♔ WCC 2021: Results ♔

<Game 1>

<Nepo-Carlsen, 1/2-1/2 in 45 moves.>

Exact, 10 points: []
Under, 7 points: [['paavoh', '1/2-1/2', '44']]
2nd Under, 6 points: [['Penguincw', '1/2-1/2', '40']]

3rd Under, 5 points: [['chessmoron', '1/2-1/2', '35'], ['WinKing', '1/2-1/2', '35']]'

Over, 3 points: []
2nd Over, 2 points: [['Schwartz', '1/2-1/2', '50']]

3rd Over, 1 point1: [['alfamikewhiskey', '1/2-1/2', '58']]

===

<Game 2>

<Carlsen-Nepo, 1/2-1/2 in 58 moves.>

Exact, 10 points: []
Under, 7 points: [['whiteshark', '1/2-1/2', '55']]

2nd Under, 6 points: [['paavoh', '1/2-1/2', '52']]

3rd Under, 5 points: [['OhioChessFan', '1/2-1/2', '50'], ['Schwartz', '1/2-1/2', '50'], ['juan31', '1/2-1/2', '50']]

Over, 3 points: []
2nd Over, 2 points: []
3rd Over, 1 point1: []

===

<Game 3>

<Nepo-Carlsen, 1/2-1/2 in 41 moves.>

Exact, 10 points: []
Under, 7 points: [['Penguincw', '1/2-1/2', '40']]

2nd Under, 6 points: [['Golden Executive', '1/2-1/2', '38']]

3rd Under, 5 points: [['chessmoron', '1/2-1/2', '37']]

Over, 3 points: []
2nd Over, 2 points: [['alfamikewhiskey', '1/2-1/2', '42']]

3rd Over, 1 point1: [['WinKing', '1/2-1/2', '43']]

===

<Game 4>

<Carlsen-Nepo, 1/2-1/2 in 33 moves.>

Exact, 10 points: []
Under, 7 points: []
2nd Under, 6 points: []
3rd Under, 5 points: []
Over, 3 points: [['chessmoron', '1/2-1/2', '40'], ['Penguincw', '1/2-1/2', '40']]

2nd Over, 2 points: [['OhioChessFan', '1/2-1/2', '47']]

3rd Over, 1 point1: [['paavoh', '1/2-1/2', '49']]

Dec-01-21  chessmoron: Game 1-4 Summary:

Perfect # moves predictions goes to:

NONE

Moves+Bonus Ranker - Through <Game 1-4>

Score, UserID

16, Penguincw
14, paavoh
13, chessmoron
7, Schwartz
7, whiteshark
7, OhioChessFan
6, WinKing
6, Golden Executive
5, juan31
3, alfamikewhiskey
0, diceman
0, jessicafisherqueen
0, offramp

<How the calculations goes>:

Moves Ranker - Through <Game 1-4>

Score, UserID, Over, Under, Exact

10, Penguincw, 1, 1, 0
7, paavoh, 0, 1, 0
7, whiteshark, 0, 1, 0
3, chessmoron, 1, 0, 0
0, alfamikewhiskey, 0, 0, 0
0, diceman, 0, 0, 0
0, Golden Executive, 0, 0, 0
0, jessicafisherqueen, 0, 0, 0
0, juan31, 0, 0, 0
0, offramp, 0, 0, 0
0, OhioChessFan, 0, 0, 0
0, Schwartz, 0, 0, 0
0, WinKing, 0, 0, 0

===

Bonus Ranker - Through <Game 1-4>

Score, UserID, 3-Over, 2-Over, 3-Under, 2-Under

10, chessmoron, 0, 0, 2, 0
7, OhioChessFan, 0, 1, 1, 0
7, paavoh, 1, 0, 0, 1
7, Schwartz, 0, 1, 1, 0
6, Golden Executive, 0, 0, 0, 1
6, Penguincw, 0, 0, 0, 1
6, WinKing, 1, 0, 1, 0
5, juan31, 0, 0, 1, 0
3, alfamikewhiskey, 1, 1, 0, 0
0, diceman, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, jessicafisherqueen, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, offramp, 0, 0, 0, 0
0, whiteshark, 0, 0, 0, 0

Dec-01-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Wilson> Thank you so much for the Games 1-4 score summary!

I had not expected to be doing this well, although I was confident that aping the Monkey Ranker would prove a good strategy.

And so it did! I just added up the "maths" you posted and I am currently batting over .900!!

Dec-02-21  chessmoron: <JFQ> You got one today. :D
Dec-02-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<Wilson> Thanks for the notification!

I just checked the stats. You see the genius of aping the Monkey Ranker is that you get predictions nobody else would ever make.

The Monkey was a genius for predicting <game 5> would be 700 moves!

Dec-04-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Welcome to the World Chess Moves Predictions Championship! The world's greatest prognosticators have assembled to battle each other for the most coveted honor in the world of chess, a Moves Prediction Contest gold medal! Each gold medal will be awarded by the Legendary 7' 6" <chessmoron>, and it is suggested each recipient give proper honor to our esteemed host.

The first four rounds are in the books, and the ever modest <penguincw> is leading in 2 Rankers. Asked to comment, <Pengo> modestly replied, "Well, I know that a lot of people are also paying attention to Carlsen and Nepo, but I realize that I'm the real star of this show. You know, I once won 4 gold medals in one contest. Have I ever told you about that? Well, it's an interesting story, blah blah blah. I mean, it was Fischeresque in scope, blah blah blah. To this day, I have people come up to me on the street and the internet asking about it, blah blah blah. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a Reddit thread or ten talking about it, blah blah blah. Blah." <Pengo> had many more interesting things to say, but unfortunately, the entire internet fell asleep at that point.

Also leading a Ranker, is The Man Himself, <chessmoron>. When he was asked why he was in the lead, the 7' 6" Titan glared at the questioner and answered, "Because I want to be." Nobody else dared ask questions at that point.

In other news, <jessicafischerqueen> began an embarrassing flirtation with the recently married <chessmoron>. She pretended to just be asking for advice on the best strategy for the contest, but everyone knew the real agenda. <chessmoron> cleverly pointed at a nearby monkey and suggested <jfq> go talk to the monkey about how to make picks. Strangely enough, <jfq> took the advice. So far, it hasn't worked, but <jfq> is holding out hope.

Meanwhile, the entire list of contestants criticized <paavoh> for his picks. <paavoh> had the last laugh, though, as he currently is in the Silver Medal position in all 3 Rankers.

In the kind of "Anything to Win" mentality I admire so much, <whiteshark> tried to distract <amw> and <paavoh> into changing their picks. They stubbornly refused, so the tactic failed, though the effort was laudable. Another pair of contestants, <Pengo> and <juan> entered 2 entirely different sets of picks, hoping <chessmoron> wouldn't notice, and they'd get to choose the higher scoring set. Alas, that clever swindle attempt failed too, but they both earned the admiration of <OhioChessFan>.

As Carlsen and Nepo continue their series of mindnumbing draws, this contest has become the center of attention in the chess world. Will <Pengo> have an acceptance speech ready in time for the medal ceremony? Will <chessmoron> intimidate everyone into not challenging his gold medal position? Probably. Will the Monkey and <jfq> work out a program to actually win a medal? Stay tuned for the answers to these and many other riveting questions.

Dec-05-21  diceman: <jessicafischerqueen:

G6 Carlsen-Nepomniachtchi 1-0 500 >

Very, very, close!

Dec-05-21  chessmoron: Darn, I eff up on the drawing of the colors of the back 7.
Dec-06-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: It's okay. Just match the game numbers up with whoever has White.
Dec-06-21  chessmoron: ♔ WCC 2021: Results ♔

<Game 5>

<Nepo-Carlsen, 1/2-1/2 in 43 moves.>

Exact, 10 points: []
Under, 7 points: [['chessmoron', '1/2-1/2', '42']]

2nd Under, 6 points: [['offramp', '1/2-1/2', '41']]

3rd Under, 5 points: [['alfamikewhiskey', '1/2-1/2', '40'], ['Golden Executive', '1/2-1/2', '40'], ['OhioChessFan', '1/2-1/2', '40'], ['Penguincw', '1/2-1/2', '40'], ['WinKing', '1/2-1/2', '40'], ['whiteshark', '1/2-1/2', '40']]

Over, 3 points: []
2nd Over, 2 points: [['jessicafischerqueen', '1/2-1/2', '47']]

3rd Over, 1 point1: [['juan31', '1/2-1/2', '49']]

===

<Game 6>

<Carlsen-Nepo, 1-0 in 136 moves.>

Exact, 10 points: []
Under, 7 points: [['WinKing', '1-0', '65']]
2nd Under, 6 points: [['paavoh', '1-0', '55']]
3rd Under, 5 points: [['offramp', '1-0', '40']]
Over, 3 points: []
2nd Over, 2 points: [['jessicafischerqueen', '1-0', '500']]

3rd Over, 1 point1: []

===

<Game 7>

<Nepo-Carlsen, 1/2-1/2 in 41 moves.>

Exact, 10 points: []
Under, 7 points: [['diceman', '1/2-1/2', '38'], ['Golden Executive', '1/2-1/2', '38'], ['paavoh', '1/2-1/2', '38']]

2nd Under, 6 points: [['chessmoron', '1/2-1/2', '36']]

3rd Under, 5 points: []
Over, 3 points: []
2nd Over, 2 points: [['OhioChessFan', '1/2-1/2', '42']]

3rd Over, 1 point1: [['alfamikewhiskey', '1/2-1/2', '44']]

<Game 8>

<Carlsen-Nepo, 1-0 in 46 moves.>

Exact, 10 points: []
Under, 7 points: [['diceman', '1-0', '42']]
2nd Under, 6 points: []
3rd Under, 5 points: []
Over, 3 points: []
2nd Over, 2 points: [['Schwartz', '1-0', '48']]
3rd Over, 1 point1: []

Dec-06-21  WinKing: <chessmoron> in game 7 <Penguincw> had draw in 40 moves. I think you missed that.

In game 6 <whiteshark> had 1-0 in 65 moves not me. I did not score that round.

Dec-06-21  WinKing: <OhioChessFan: It's okay. Just match the game numbers up with whoever has White.>

A few of the contestants picked only 13 games. That could be a problem if the match goes that far. Your idea works if there are an even # of games picked. Just a heads up in case it happens.

Dec-06-21  chessmoron: Game 5-8 Summary:

Perfect # moves predictions goes to:

NONE

Moves+Bonus Ranker - Through <Game 5-8>

Score, UserID

28, Penguincw
26, paavoh
25, chessmoron
19, whiteshark
17, Golden Executive
14, OhioChessFan
13, diceman
11, offramp
11, WinKing
9, alfamikewhiskey
9, Schwartz
6, juan31
4, jessicafischerqueen

<How the calculations goes>:

Moves Ranker - Through <Game 5-8>

Score, UserID, Over, Under, Exact

17, Penguincw, 1, 2, 0
14, whiteshark, 0, 2, 0
10, chessmoron, 1, 1, 0
7, diceman, 0, 1, 0
7, paavoh, 0, 1, 0
0, WinKing, 0, 0, 0
0, Golden Executive, 0, 0, 0
0, alfamikewhiskey, 0, 0, 0
0, jessicafisherqueen, 0, 0, 0
0, juan31, 0, 0, 0
0, offramp, 0, 0, 0
0, OhioChessFan, 0, 0, 0
0, Schwartz, 0, 0, 0

===

Bonus Ranker - Through <Game 5-8>

Score, UserID, 3-Over, 2-Over, 3-Under, 2-Under

19, paavoh, 1, 0, 0, 3
17, Golden Executive, 0, 0, 1, 2
15, chessmoron, 0, 0, 3, 0
14, OhioChessFan, 0, 2, 2, 0
11, offramp, 0, 0, 1, 1
11, Penguincw, 0, 0, 1, 1
11, WinKing, 1, 0, 2, 0
9, alfamikewhiskey, 2, 1, 1, 0
9, Schwartz, 0, 2, 1, 0
6, diceman, 0, 0, 0, 1
6, juan31, 1, 0, 1, 0
5, whiteshark, 0, 0, 1, 0
4, jessicafischerqueen, 0, 2, 0, 0

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