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Feb-21-10
 | | Phony Benoni: Just came across Matty Alou's pitching debut:
http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/... I'm sure a lot of teams would like to know his secret of pitching to Stargell. Possibly, Willie may have been laughing too hard the first time up to pay attention. And I would love to know how the conversation went when they became teammates the next year. |
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Feb-21-10
| | Phony Benoni: Boy, I'm talking a lot today.
As regards Schalk and Ferrell, I think <JB> is quite right: there were different standards in their cases. In the first half of the 20th century, there were few good hitting catchers, so they were judged mostly on defensive ability. Schalk was supposed to be one of the best defensively. I remember reading that he was the first catcher to make a putout at every base--and how often have you seen a catcher make a putout at 2nd? Ferrell caught the infamous Senators knuckleball staff of the mid-1940s, which is a major qualification right there. But he also had a long, productive career with above average batting numbers for a catcher. Plus, he stayed active in baseball management after retiring, and may have gotten his reputation inflated a bit through the Old Boy Network. The perception of catchers as hitters started to change around 1950 when Berra and Campanella became stars, and Johnny Bench forever broke the mold. Today, it's inconceivable that a catcher could make the Hall of Fame without solid offensive numbers. As for Munson ... I don't know. It can't even be a Ron Santo kind of thing, since his teams did win. Perhaps his premature death hurt his chances; had he continued with his same numbers for several more years and won another title or two, he could have been a shoo-in. |
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| Feb-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: Early in his career Mike Krukow hit a homer off Steve Carlton. So when he was traded to the Phils, the first day he walked into the locker room wearing a t-shirt saying "I took Lefty deep." So when Matty was traded to Pittsburgh, he should have worn a t-shirt reading "I whiffed Pops." (He probably wasn't called Pops in 1966, but it's the idea.) |
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| Feb-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: "The perception of catchers as hitters started to change around 1950 when Berra and Campanella became stars," Then there was Ernie Lombardi, a legend in San Francisco. A great hitter, but so slow he could barely do the job behind the plate. |
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Feb-21-10
| | Phony Benoni: Yes, Lombardi was one of the exceptions. It was a miracle he could compilie a lifetime average over .300 without legging out infield singles. The year he won the batting title, he also established a record for most double plays grounded into. In fact, now that I think more about it, that statement may be way off. A few others with excellent offensive statistics were Mickey Cochrane, Bill Dickey, Gabby Hartnett--and surely many more. |
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| Feb-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: I don't know about that. But there were certainly good-hitting catchers between Berra/Campanella and Bench. Haller/Bailey hit 35 homers for the Giants one year (the lefty/lefty platoon) and Bill Freehan was a good hitter for Detroit. Joe Torre could hit but was not good behind the plate. (Whitey Herzog: "The fans in center knew Torre's number better than the fans behind home plate.") |
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| Feb-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: I see at least one old Phillie is finding a way to keep busy: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/oly... |
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| Feb-22-10 | | playground player: <Phony Benoni> I do love the games you come up with! 3 strikeouts by Matty Alou--too bad he could never throw like that from the outfield. Thurman Munson, no HOF, still a puzzlement. League MVP (not many catchers win that), great 1976 World Series, and in 1978 was the first AL player to hit .300 with 100 RBI for three years in a row, since Al Rosen did it some 20 years earlier. But then Al Rosen isn't in the Hall, either, is he? |
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| Feb-22-10 | | Jim Bartle: Looking at Munson, I don't see a HOF record. On the way maybe, but not there yet. Sparky Lyle: "Munson's not moody, he's just mean. When you're moody, you're nice sometimes." |
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| Feb-23-10 | | Jim Bartle: Concerning the Pete Maravich comments on the Fischer page: Maravich was certainly a great player, but not as good as his college stats indicate. His more modest NBA record is a much better measure. Yes, he scored 44 points a game over three years. Also, there was no other talent on the team (28-26 league record with Pete), his father was the coach (fired soon after Pete left), and he took 38 shots per game. 38 shots!!! He was a great passer, no question, but he only averaged 5 assists at LSU. On a decent team with a coach interested primarily in winning games, he probably would have scored 30 a game with 10 assists. Great but not distorted as the 44 points were. |
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Feb-23-10
 | | HeMateMe: I think college ball was different too, at that time. Maybe less emphasis on defensive systems. I'm not sure a player in this era could do what Pete did in college; the other coaches are too good at being able to shut down one player. I remember him being suspended by the Atlanta hawks, for poor play on the defensive end. I guess that wouldn't be allowed today. The players union would be all over that one! |
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| Feb-23-10 | | A.G. Argent: Yeah, Jim, and the Pistol was indeed a bit of a toreador on defense. Back in the Trailblazers early years, don't remember which year, early to mid-70's, I went to a Blazer-Jazz game and witnessed an incredible pre-3 point shootout between Maravich and the other doormat of the era, Geoff Petrie, who were one another's man. Both of them scored exactly 54 points, I think it was, on each other. It was fun to watch Pete, no doubt. His passing sometimes defied many rules of the physical universe. |
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| Feb-23-10 | | Jim Bartle: It's possible to defend Maravich's high shot totals and relatively low assist totals. Maybe the opponents were so worried about his passing that they refused to double-team him, leaving him one-on-one opportunities all game long. I saw exactly that one night in Oakland around 1966. USF was playing Providence, which had a star guard, Jimmy Walker. Over and over Walker would back his man down into the lane and then take a turnaround jumper. Not once did USF try to double-team him, and fortunately for them Walker was cold in the first half as USF built up a lead. Afterward the USF coach said Walker was such a good passer he would have found the open man the moment he was double-teamed. And sure enough, two weeks later SI had a story on him with sequential photos showing his sharp passing. |
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Feb-23-10
| | Phony Benoni: There are times when Wikipedia is invaluable, and times when its "D'Oh!" ratio is off the charts. Here's the article on Geoff Petrie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_...
Note the last sentence under Professional Career: <"Petrie did not play any games for the Hawks after suffering a career-ending knee injury."> I never would have guessed. |
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Feb-23-10
 | | WannaBe: Is that they call them 'career-ending injury'? |
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| Feb-23-10 | | Jim Bartle: My impression of Petrie when he was playing was that he was a selfish gunner, sort of a taller Gail Goodrich (late career Goodrich). Don't know how accurate that is, since his shooting percentages were pretty good. |
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| Feb-23-10 | | A.G. Argent: Oh, Petrie was a serious gunner. So was his teammate Sidney Wicks. They had to run and gun, the team had nothing else; Rick Adleman was the point guard (no offense, Rick), Larue Martin was the center. They were eversomuch an expansion team until they dumped those guys, the NBA and the ABA merged and Maurice Lucas, Jack Ramsey and Walton all eventually came together and jelled into a pretty good team. Won their only title in '77. |
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| Feb-23-10 | | Jim Bartle: Right. Couldn't have won without Lucas. But Hollins was pretty good. Gross and Twardzik filled their roles very well, but without Walton they'd be talked about the way Nets and Clippers are today. When you've got two guys who are looking to up their scoring on a team that is losing, it can be really bad. In the great Connie Hawkins "Foul," a major theme of his time on the Suns was the ball-hogging of Gail Goodrich, who wanted to be the clear #1 guy. |
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Feb-23-10
 | | chancho: Marevich played in the 1979-80 season for the Celts and they lost to the Sixers in the Eastern Conference Finals 4-1.
Marevich retired after that. Too bad he did not hang around for one more season.
The Celts won it all in 1980-81. |
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| Feb-23-10 | | talisman: really enjoyed the baseball and basketball comments....2 things. I think Lombardi ended up in a bad way at the end( have to check) and one guy, Burt Blylevin(sp) should be in the hall of fame. what is he on the strikeout list? something like 5th? shutouts too. |
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Feb-23-10
| | HeMateMe: <Too bad he did not hang around for one more season. The Celts won it all in 1980-81.> They won because Auerbach got rid of the guys who he wasn't going to win with. |
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Feb-23-10
| | chancho: <HeMateMe> If I recall, Pistol Pete announced his retirement. Cowens left to Milwaukee. Then Parish and McHale were acquired when Red traded the number 1 pick (Joe Barry Carroll) to Golden State. Those were basically the big changes made to that team. |
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| Feb-23-10 | | Jim Bartle: Hold on there, Chancho! It's just not true the Warriors traded Parish and McHale to get Joe Barely Cares. The Warriors also got the immortal <Rickey Brown>. If I remember correctly, Cowens just quit during training camp, from one day to the next. I don't really know how he ended up at Milwaukee. He was a great player through the 70s. |
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| Feb-23-10 | | Jim Bartle: Speaking of the Celts, in his book Larry Bird wrote about how important end-of-the-bench guys likeEric Fernsten, ML Carr, Rick Robey, and Rick Carlisle were to the team. That their team attitudes and their play in practice were vital to success, even if they hardly played. He thought it really hurt the team when Fernsten and Robey were let go. Now maybe they were just Bird's caddies on the team, but I got the impression he meant it. |
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Feb-23-10
| | chancho: Jim your memory is better than mine.
<Heading into the 1980 NBA Draft the Celtics held the number one overall pick. But in a shrewd pre-draft trade, considered by some to be among the most lopsided in NBA history, Boston Celtics President Red Auerbach dealt the top pick and an additional first-round pick to the Golden State Warriors for Warriors center Robert Parish and the Warriors' first-round pick, the third overall. With that pick the Celtics chose McHale.> |
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