< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 172 OF 914 ·
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Apr-29-10
 | | Phony Benoni: Maybe the closest was in 1957, the year Cincinnati fans stuffed the ballot box and elected seven of their eight regulars to the game. C Ed Bailey, 2B Johnny Temple, SS Roy McMillan, 3B Don Hoak, and LF Frank Robinson did start, but the authorities stepped in and benched CF Gus Bell and RF Wally Post in favor of Willie Mays and Hank Aaron. The only Cincy player to fail in the voting was 1B George Crowe, who lost narrowly to some former pitcher named Musial. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Jim Bartle: I'm looking at the box for that 63 All-Star game, lots of interesting stuff. American League, 1963, here's the powerful starting lineup; Fox, Pearson, Kaline, Malzone, Leon Wagner, Battey, Pepitone, Versalles, McBride. No offense to any of them, but that's not much of an All-Star starting lineup in historic terms. Also, Duke Snider on the NL team? Sounds like an honorary spot for a retiring great. Aaron hit second, Bill White third. Huh? Aaron only had 130 RBIs that year. (Over 700 plate appearances, don't see that often today.) Ten pitchers used, only two pitchers (Drysdale, Bunning) you'd remember as stars. OK, Radatz, too. Bunning was the losing pitcher, but didn't give up a hit. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Jim Bartle: Ah yes, the famous ballot-stuffing game, the year before the Giants came to SF and I started following baseball. Though I'd been to an exhibition game in '57: Seals vs. Boston. Either Orlando Cepeda didn't make the '63 team, or was injured. You'd think .316, 34, and 97 would be good enough, but maybe he hit a lot in the second half. |
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Apr-29-10
 | | Phony Benoni: Cepeda was selected in 1963, but just didn't play. Since the Giants won the pennant the year before, Dark would have been managing the team and might have wanted to give him the day off. Or maybe he was just being noble and wanted to avoid charges of favoritism toward his own players. Frank Malzone was a interesting case. Today it seems weird he'd be taken ahead of Brooks Robinson, but at the time of the All-Star game he was batting around .330. Also, he was a fine fielder who had won the Gold Glove a couple of times before Brooks got warmed up. Fox might also have been a semi-honorary selection. |
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Apr-29-10 | | Jim Bartle: So three first baseman from the Giants farm system were on the team. Though McCovey may have been selected as an outfielder. |
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Apr-30-10 | | Travis Bickle: Mickey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2lg... |
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Apr-30-10
 | | Phony Benoni: So the Kentucky Derby is tomorrow? There's only one possible video for that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itg3... |
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Apr-30-10
 | | Phony Benoni: <Travis> Thanks. What a pleasure it is to see someone wallop a ball 450 feet and run hard to first base instead of enjoying the view. |
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Apr-30-10 | | Jim Bartle: A lot of players don't even run full speed to first on <doubles> today. They wait to see if the ball is caught or if it goes out of the park. |
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Apr-30-10
 | | Phony Benoni: Did Reggie Jackson start that? I definitely remember him doing it, like the blast at the All-Star Game in Detroit. Of course, that time he had a good excuse. |
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Apr-30-10 | | Jim Bartle: Reggie was certainly one of the first to stand admiring his homers, though I have no idea if he was the very first. But I don't mind on an obvious homer. What bugs me is that on a lot of balls hit off the wall, when you see the replay, the hitter is runner at a relaxed speed, watching the ball, and doesn't really get moving until it lands. |
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May-01-10
 | | Phony Benoni: Speaking of Bob Uecker:
http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/news/... For the record, he's 75. |
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May-01-10 | | Travis Bickle: Good Ol Uke God Bless Him! |
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May-01-10
 | | WannaBe: "Just a bit outside" -- Major League |
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May-01-10 | | Travis Bickle: Ah... Secretariat, the greatest racehorse that ever lived! He won The
Kentucky Derby in 1973 with the time of 1:59 & 2/5 still a record to this day!! "Big Red" as they called him went onto to win the Triple Crown that year setting record times in all 3 races!! Secretariat won the Belmont Stakes by 31 lengths!!! Incredible horse!! Here are those races. The Kentucky Derby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RGP...
The Preakness
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEOl...
The Belmont (only a 5 horse race! Almost all the owners were afraid of that horse.) ; P
http://www.maniacworld.com/Secretar... |
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May-01-10
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Don't forget Seattle Slew and Affirmed.
Also, today's top horse is the undefeated MARE <Zenyatta>, who won the world's richest race last fall, the <Breeder's Cup Classic>. |
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May-01-10 | | Jim Bartle: II read somewhere that a fairly large percentage of winning tickets for Secretariat in the Belmont were never cashed. They obviously weren't worth that much in cash, and people kept them as souvenirs. |
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May-01-10
 | | keypusher: A lot of what I do on this page is repeat something I read and ask for more knowledgeable opinions about it. Here I go again. Cepeda famously did not get along with Alvin Dark, his manager. Dark may have had issues with black players, so I am not saying we should take his views on Cepeda at face value, but: In 1961, Dark said, "I'm sick and tired of players on this team leading the league in home runs and RBIs and not doing anything to help us win." It was pretty obvious he was referring to Cepeda. I don't know how you can lead the league in HRs and RBIs and not help your team win -- the idea, after all, is to score more runs than the other team. But that's what Dark said. Dark used a plus and minus system to evaluate players (I'm paraphrasing Bill James' Hall of Fame book). A game winning hit might be 4 plusses. Hitting behind the runner is a plus; at a critical time it might be two plusses. A HR in a decided game might not count. Missing a sign, mishandling a cutoff, not running out a ground ball might be minuses. Cepeda led the team in minuses.
So, what do you guys think? Did Dark have a point about Cepeda? Or was he hung up on things that didn't really matter? |
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May-01-10
 | | Phony Benoni: Over the long haul, playing sound fundamental baseball pays off. That's how teams like the Twins or Angels consistently contend. And if you think big boppers like the Yankees need not be fundamentally sound, just watch them working the count. But every player has different skills and a different role to play, and it's a mistake to evaluate them all using the same criteria. Hitting behind the runner is all well and good, but sooner or later somebody has got to drive the guy in. The good manager is able to utilize these different skills. He doesn't ask Ted Williams to lay down a sacrifice bunt, Ron Herbel to execute the hit-and-run, or Gus Triandos to steal second base. And more importantly, he doesn't condemn them if they can't perform these skills consistently. There is a certain level of hustle and simple baseball "smarts" that should be required for all players. Beyond that, it's simply not as easy as counting plusses and minuses. If it was, Rybka would win Manager of the Year every time. |
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May-01-10 | | Jim Bartle: In the early 60s Cepeda was an extremely popular player in SF (as he is today, with a food stand at the stadium where he often takes orders--at least he did a couple of years ago), and was a big time power hitter often driving in Willie Mays. I certainly don't remember (I was a kid, though) that he built up his stats by hitting at less important moments. Seems difficult to have 140 unimportant RBIs, though. Of course there was a lot of discussion (not really a controversy) about whether he or McCovey should be playing, and if both were in the lineup, which one should go to the outfield. At the same time I don't remember people thinking of Cepeda as a future Hall of Famer, not even after his two big years at St. Louis following his trade straight up for first-ballot Hall of Famer Ray Sadecki. I'd be interested to know in which month Dark made that comment. 1961 was a frustrating year for the Giants. They had a strong team, especially with Marichal in his first full season, but just couldn't get going at the right moments, and finished eight games behind a less-than-great Cincinnati team. It's likely Dark was just frustrated about having a such a good team which wasn't winning in his first year as a manager. Although there was a lot of complaining among fans about Dark, as on most highly talented teams, he was generally quite popular. Certainly liked a lot more than the guy who replaced him, Herman Franks. (Among Giants' managers, fans just loved Frank Robinson, ever as they disagreed with a lot of the things he did.) I know there were questions about Dark and his relationships with black and Latin players. This may have had something to do with his firing in SF, and it definitely came up when he was managing the powerhouse A's in 1974. |
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May-01-10 | | Jim Bartle: I looked up the records of the Reds, Dodgers and Giants in 1961. They might explain Dark's frustration, thinking the Giants (and Cepeda in particular) didn't do the little things to win close games. Cincinnati 93 wins, 710 runs scored, 653 runs given up. Los Angeles 89 wins, 735 runs scored, 697 runs given up. San Francisco, 85 wins, 773 runs scored, 655 runs given up. So statistically the Giants were far superior to both the Reds and the Dodgers, but finished eight and four games behind them respectively. Cincinnati must have been just great in close games, to have scored only 57 runs more than its opponents, yet managed a 93-59 record. The Giants scored 12 or more runs nine times, which I have to assume is a lot. Dark probably remembered Cepeda hitting for power in those games. |
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May-01-10
 | | Phony Benoni: OK, here's an odd play for you, to end the Tigers 7th. http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/... Twins catcher Ratliff trapped the ball during the third strike. The umpire realized this and did not call Wilson out, but Ratliff thought the inning was over and rolled the ball back toward the mound as he and the rest of the team left the field. Wilson started running, and was rounding third base when the Twins realized what was happening. Left fielder Alvea grabbed the ball, then he and shortstop Leo Cardenas managed to run down Wilson for the out. So you have a 7-6-7 putout, which is odd enough--but following a strikeout! |
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May-01-10
 | | Phony Benoni: A little background on Alvin Dark's managerial career: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_... Apparently, he also had trouble getting along with Charlie Finley. One could have worse faults. The Newsday article may have been a misquote, but in light of his earlier statement I'd have to say this attitude had some basis in fact. Dark also appears to be a case where a talented player becomes a manager immediately after retiring, then has trouble working with players whose style differs from his. Generally, managers seem to do better after an apprenticeship in the minor leagues. |
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May-01-10 | | Jim Bartle: That has to be the only 7-6-7 putout in baseball history. Watched part of a day game at Detroit's new stadium for the first time. Looks beautiful. In the Yankees game, Posada took what he figured was a called third strike and started walking to the dugout. Ump didn't call it, though. Wonder if there were words when Posada came out to catch the next inning. Dark was the type of player who tend to make good managers. A good player, a veteran, who was never a real star. It's often the superstar who can't manage well (Ted Williams, for example), because he fails to understand that less talented players just can't do what he did. I've read about Dark's role in the Krausse affair on the team flight, with the A's in 1967. (This led at least indirectly to Finley cutting Ken Harrelson from the team, and he signed with the Red Sox for their great pennant drive.) Dark was fired in the fallout to that mess. He refused to fine Lew Krausse for his behavior on the flight, and basically supported the players against Finley's stupidities. Makes it even stranger that he was hired again to manage the A's in '74. By that time the team hardly needed a manager, and kept winning, until losing to the Red Sox in the 1975 playoffs. |
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May-01-10
 | | keypusher: <Phony benoni> <JB> Thank you, gentlemen. |
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