< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 178 OF 914 ·
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May-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: Hmmm, let's look at Dave Kingman:
Lifetime on-base percentage of .300, pretty terrible, but he didn't seem to strike out too much for a power hitter. Once when playing 3B for the Giants, man on third with two out, I saw him field a grounder and fire it home. The catcher was not there, of course, as he was running to first to back up a bad throw. And Kingman was--of course!--the leadoff batter the next inning. You've never heard such booing. |
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May-21-10
 | | keypusher: <Jim Bartle>
Interesting numbers. I knew Kingman was around long enough to hit 400 home runs, so I figured he couldn't have struck out on an Incavigliesque scale, but even so he struck out less than I expected. He was also still a regular 30+ HR-a-year man even in his late 30s. Did he retire voluntarily, or did his batting average finally do him in? Never had 100 runs in a season, even the year he hit 48 quadrangulares. Do 442 pre-steroid HRs make him a Hall of Fame candidate? Or is that just a stupid question? How much harm can a lousy first baseman really do? A fair amount, if he's throwing to home plate when no one is there, I guess... I was reading about Greg Luzinski, another legendarily lousy glove man. He played right field. Why didn't they try to turn him into a first baseman? I see the Phillies eventually sent him to the White Sox, where he presumably burned his glove. |
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May-21-10
 | | keypusher: Re the Hall of Fame, I see Kong got three votes out of 430 cast in 1992, his only year on the ballot. So I guess that answers my question. |
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May-21-10
 | | keypusher: Also, I had it backward -- Luzinski played left field. Also, I was surprised to see that Kingman played more games in the outfield than at first base. |
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May-21-10
 | | keypusher: Pretty funny:
<The Giants loved his bat, but they didn't have any room for him in their outfield, so they tried to make him an infielder. In 1972-1974, Kingman played 140 games for the Giants at third base, where he committed 44 errors. He wasn't much better at first base, making 13 errors in 91 games in 1974. The Mets tried the tall, lumbering slugger in left field (in 1975), and right field (1976), before trading the troublemaker in 1977, when he played for four teams in four different divisions. With the Cubs from 1978-1980, he was allowed to play left field, and he enjoyed some of his most productive seasons, though his glove seemed allergic to the baseball, and he made 23 errors in exactly 300 games. The Mets got him back and played him at first, where he was dismal - committing 13 errors in 1981, and an amazing 18 in 1982. Anyone who saw Kingman play first base can easily recall the image of the 6-foot, six-inch giant refusing to bend over to field throws below is knees. He also displayed the range of an anvil. The A's had the right idea from 1984-1986, using Kingman as a DH almost exclusively. In his final season, in '86, Kingman played just three games in the field, but still managed to fumble the ball for two errors.> http://www.thebaseballpage.com/play... |
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May-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: Kingman didn't do much as a hitter except hit some home runs. And he was known as a Grade A jerk. Not going to help you get into the Hall of Fame. Was Luzinski really such a bad fielder, or was he just slow? I know he's still popular in Philadelphia; I think he has some sort of stand (serving high-calorie food, no doubt) at the stadium. |
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May-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: How many runs has Jason Bartlett driven in with his last 21 home runs? 21! I'll bet that's some sort of record.
Gotta give Bartlett a little break here. As a leadoff hitter he's going to come up with nobody on base more than any other hitter. |
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May-21-10 | | YouRang: This discussion of hitting vs. fielding reminds me of Steve Garvey. Great bat, but defensively he was unsuccessful at third base and in the outfield. However, it turned out that Garvey's defensive problem was specialized. He was a fine fielder when it was a matter of fielding a ball coming at him -- it was the just balls leaving him that were a problem. He was just awful at throwing the ball. Fortunately, baseball has a position where receiving the ball is of paramount importance, but throwing it is marginalized: First base! Those of us who watched him play appreciate all the times he scooped errant throws to make the out at first (and he got his share of those from shortstop Bill Russell). But on those few occasions where the first baseman must throw, we held our breath. :-) |
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May-21-10
 | | Phony Benoni: Perhaps this game presents Kingman at his best position: http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/... No errors, but he did throw two wild pitches. |
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May-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: Kingman was a pitcher at USC; I saw him pitch against Stanford. But look at that lineup for the Dodgers. Pretty darn good. Wes Parker really despised Garvey, and the reason wasn't so much he was terrible at throwing, but that if a runner took off from second to third, Garvey would just hold the ball. The other teams knew it, and ran wild on him. It bugged Parker that everybody thought he was so great, didn't see that glaring shortcoming. |
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May-21-10 | | YouRang: <Jim Bartle><Was Luzinski really such a bad fielder, or was he just slow?> I found this description online:
<But it should come as no surprise that "The Bull" had become a DH by the end of his career, given that he was always basically a DH, he was just one who had the misfortune of playing left field. One fan I know described Luzinski simply as "dreadful" while Bill James notes that he "played with his back turned to center field, sort of officially notifying [Garry] Maddox that he considered anything hit to his left Maddox' s responsibility." James also goes into some detail explaining Luzinski's troubles with the wall, the sun, his throwing arm--it was both non-existent and hugely inaccurate--finally summing it up by explaining that "it was like having Herman Munster playing left field."> I think if you look at the stats, his fielding numbers don't look so terrible. But fielding stats are dubious anyway. You can lumber around the field chasing down a ball that other outfields would have caught, and then make a weak throw that allows the runners to take an extra base -- but you won't get charged with an error! |
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May-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: So I guess it was than just being slow!
Bill James had a great description of Lonnie Smith's fielding. He said Smith was so practiced, so expert, that after he booted the ball he knew exactly how far and in what direction the ball had bounced, and he jumped on it quickly. |
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May-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: Yes, outfield errors can be pretty misleading.
A Luzinski can fail to reach a ball forty feet away--no error. Gary Pettis can run halfway across the outfield, and have the ball glance off his glove at full speed--error. |
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May-21-10
 | | keypusher: I think <YouRang> covered just about everything I had to say about Luzinski. Bill James was at pains to say he didn't have a bad attitude like Kingman; he just couldn't get it done in the field. James added that the Phillies never could have gotten away with playing him if they didn't have Maddox in center. There are a lot of things I don't understand about baseball, but one of them is how a guy can be a first rate hitter, able to locate and drive a 95 mph fastball, and yet be unable to throw decently. In James' Baseball Abstract, one of the most interesting essays is his discussion of the fielding statistics of Bill Buckner v. Steve Garvey. Garvey couldn't throw, so he always tried to beat the runner to the bag; Buckner had bad knees, so he always made the pitcher cover first. As a result, Buckner had lots of assists and Garvey had very few. But anyone who watched them play (even before the 1986 World Series) knew that Garvey was a better defensive first baseman than Buckner. James goes on to explain how he worked from this to figuring out a way to massage the assist statistics so that they would actually yield useful information about first basemen, and from there, defensive players generally. I think the entire essay is obsolete, because the whole sabermetrics field has moved on since. then. But it's an impressive example of "a first-rate mind being wasted on baseball" as someone described James. <Wes Parker really despised Garvey, and the reason wasn't so much he was terrible at throwing, but that if a runner took off from second to third, Garvey would just hold the ball. > Parker has a point, but Garvey would say he was just avoiding a throwing error, I guess. How often does a guy on second base get a chance to run on the first baseman anyway? (Not trying to pick a fight with Wes Parker; I genuinely have no idea.) A few years ago some team had a play to try to score a guy from third on Jason Giambi. I can't remember who the team was or even what they did, but it worked like a charm. Giambi's throw missed the catcher by about 20 feet, which has got to be hard to do given that he was only 90 feet away. |
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May-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: I remember that. James wrote five pages, in incredible detail, on how to interpret first basemen's fielding stats. Any time you've got a guy at second on a play that ended at first base, there's the possibility of trying to take third. The runner doesn't try that often, because it's dangerous. But if you have a pretty good idea the first baseman isn't going to throw, why not try? |
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May-21-10
 | | keypusher: <Any time you've got a guy at second on a play that ended at first base, there's the possibility of trying to take third. The runner doesn't try that often, because it's dangerous. But if you have a pretty good idea the first baseman isn't going to throw, why not try?> Agree. But I remember James (again) reading someone talking about the "hundreds" of runners that some great outfielder prevented from going from first to third on a ball hit to right. Being James, of course he had to figure out whether that was true. And he had to allow for the fact that there were some slow runners who wouldn't make it to third from first even if slomarko's grandmother was in the outfield, and by contrast there were balls to the corner where not even a guy with a howitzer arm would be able to keep the runner from getting to third. Anyway, James eventually concluded that there was just a small number of occasions when even a great outfielder would make a difference on that particular play. Similarly, I watched Giambi play for years with the Yankees. Even I could see he was a rotten first baseman, but it didn't matter very often, because about 90% of what a first baseman does is catch throws from other infielders. And Giambi could do that. So it would be interesting to know how many bases Garvey really cost the Dodgers on guys going from second to third. I am going to guess it wasn't very many. |
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May-21-10 | | Jim Bartle: Probably not many.
James has really punctured a lot of the old thinking about baseball. What I like about him in comparison to most sportswriting (including Sports Illustrated) is that he looks at the data and comes to conclusions. He doesn't start with an idea and look for data to support his position. Somebody (maybe even Herzog) had said that Ozzie Smith saved the Cards a hundred runs a year. James wrote, "Compared to what? Having no shortstop at all?" He did his analysis, and determined Smith saved perhaps twenty runs a year over a typical shortstop. Which is quite a bit. You see this too often. I remember an SI article about the San Diego Padres. It said the hitters were having trouble because of the great distances to the fences. But it said the pitching staff was much improved (without mentioning the bigger dimensions). For me a great outfielder arm is worth much more than its actual impact on the game. I just love watching a guy fire a bullet to third or home. |
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May-22-10
 | | Phony Benoni: Strange occurrence in my little Strat-o-Matic league. Dick Stuart reaches base three times in a game due to errors by the other team. It's contagious! |
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May-22-10 | | Jim Bartle: What happened? Did he keep hitting it to Greg Luzinski? |
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May-23-10 | | playground player: This discussion reminds me of an exchange I heard in a Yankees vs. A's broadcast. The A's had Rickey Henderson, Tony Armas, and Dwayne Murphy in the outfield, and Phil Rizzuto thought it might be the best outfield in the majors. So he asked his broadcast partner, Bill White, "What was the best outfield you ever saw?" White: "Willie Mays."
Rizzuto: "What do you mean? He was only the centerfielder." White: "When the other outfielders are Dusty Rhodes and Don Mueller, there is only the centerfielder." |
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May-23-10
 | | keypusher: More Jamesian abuse of Kingman and Stuart, courtesy of his "percentage player index," a sort of baseball IQ test, that averaged (i) the player's fielding percentage, compared to norms for his era and position (30% of the total figure) (ii) stolen base percentage (30%) (iii) strikeout to walk ratio (30%) and (iv) walk frequency in absolute terms (10%). As James pointed out, there were a number of problems with this figure, the biggest being that the National League did not even track caught stealing as a statistic until 1951, so a lot of great players could not even be appraised by this metric. But anyway, the top spot on the percentage player index was occupied by Joe Morgan. Other top percentage players: Maxie Bishop, Junior Gilliam, Ozzie Smith, Lou Boudreau, Tim Raines, Lu Blue, Willie Kamm, Earle Combs, Barney McCoskey (who?), Tony Gwynn, Joe Dimaggio, Bill Dickey, Buddy Myer and Luke Appling. Morgan, to my amazement, had over 1800 walks in his career, compared to 1015 strikeouts. At the opposite end of the scale was Dick Stuart, who had 2 career stolen bases in 9 attempts, more than three times as many strikeouts as walks, and 80% more errors than an average first baseman for his era. Individually, none of these figures is at the bottom; Tony Armas and Mariano Duncan, among others, had much worse strikeout to walk ratios, and Kingman and Alex Johnson made more than twice as many errors as the norm. But only Stuart was near the bottom at all four measures. (Kingman, believe it or not, had 85 career stolen bases, maxing out with 16 as a 23-year-old San Francisco Giant. He was caught stealing 49 times.) http://www.baseball-reference.com/p... Bottom ten percentage players: Stuart, Jim Lemon, Alex Johnson, Hubie Brooks, Dave Kingman, Brian Harper, Pete Incaviglia, John Bateman, Hector Lopez and Willie Horton. The list is a tribute to Stuart in a way; there were worse percentage players, but they didn't last in the majors long enough to qualify. Dick Stuart could hit well enough to have a 9-year career despite being unable, it seems, to run, field or think. Also, Dr. Strangeglove has got to be one of the all-time great baseball nicknames. According to James' win shares system, 77% of Kingman's value is his home runs, the highest figure for anyone with at least 100 win shares. The rest of the list (compiled as of 2000) is as you might expect: Cecil Fielder, Rob Deer, Pete Incaviglia, Tony Armas, Dick Stuart, Gus Zernial, Juan Gonzalez, Sammy Sosa, and Wally Post. Ninety-three percent of Balboni's value rested in his home runs, but he didn't have enough win shares to qualify. |
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May-23-10 | | Jim Bartle: Dr. Strangeglove has got to be one of the all-time great nicknames. But he'd left the Pirates, where he earned his reputation, before Dr. Strangelove had even come out. Another player with a reputation as "just a home run hitter" was Ralph Kiner. I wonder where he ranked on that list. I do remember that James ranked him quite highly, noting some good production beyond his homers, such as scoring 100 runs year after year. |
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May-23-10 | | Travis Bickle: Hey Dr Benoni, Jim Bartle and all you Sportsfans out there The Chicago Blackhawks play in 10 minutes for the right to advance to The Stanley Cup! Let's sychronize our watches! |
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May-23-10
 | | Phony Benoni: <Travis> Probably not a good idea. Every time we synchronize our watches, I wind up running an hour late. |
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May-23-10
 | | keypusher: Kiner has bizarre numbers. He had hit over 50 homers twice by the time he was 27, but was basically finished by age 30...injuries? I don't know. Among statheads he gets compared to Albert Belle a lot. http://www.baseball-reference.com/p... I don't know what percentage of his value is home runs, but what leaps off the page is the fact that, in his prime years, he was walking about twice as often as he struck out. He couldn't have been very fast, since he didn't hit many doubles or triples and stole very few bases, but presumably his walks + homers + decent batting average account for his very high runs scored. So he did have value beyond home runs. I checked and Barry Bonds had a similar K-BB ratio, even before the freakish numbers he put up 2001-2004. Ruth too. Ruth never struck out 100 times in a season, surprisingly, but strikeouts were much less common in the 1920s than they became later. Dimaggio had a great ratio, of course, but he didn't get walked nearly as much as Kiner, Bonds and Ruth. Any other sluggers like that? |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 178 OF 914 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
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