< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 242 OF 914 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Mar-26-11
 | | WannaBe: A real debate, is one, where I take off my shoe and pound the table with it, while screaming... |
|
Mar-26-11 | | Jim Bartle: Wrong page, WannaBe: Alexey Khruschiov |
|
Mar-27-11
 | | WannaBe: Don't make me take off my shoe! |
|
Mar-27-11
 | | Phony Benoni: Oh, Good Lord, No!! |
|
Mar-27-11 | | playground player: <technical draw> You know what? You've made a very convincing argument! If you have to debate a player's merit, then he probably doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame... I like it! I know, I know--some people are just plain contrary. Debating Munson is, I suppose, reasonable. Debating Warren Spahn or Stan Musial is just plain silly. |
|
Mar-27-11
 | | Phony Benoni: Problem is, by that criterion the only nondebatabe Hall-of-Famers are Josh Gibson and Cool Papa Bell, who each received 100% in Negro League Committee voting. The best in the regular voting is Tom Seaver at 98.84%, followed closely by Nolan Ryan at 98.79%. Spahn received only 83.2%. I count only 27 players with at least 90%:
1 Tom Seaver 98.84%
2 Nolan Ryan 98.79%
3 Cal Ripken 98.53%
4 Ty Cobb 98.23%
5 George Brett 98.19%
6 Hank Aaron 97.83%
7 Tony Gwynn 97.61%
8 Mike Schmidt 96.52%
9 Johnny Bench 96.42%
10 Steve Carlton 95.82%
11 Babe Ruth 95.13%
12 Honus Wagner 95.13%
13 Rickey Henderson 94.81%
14 Willie Mays 94.68%
15 Carl Yastrzemski 94.63%
16 Bob Feller 93.75%
17 Reggie Jackson 93.62%
18 Ted Williams 93.38%
19 Stan Musial 93.24%
20 Roberto Clemente 92.69%
21 Jim Palmer 92.57%
22 Brooks Robinson 91.98%
23 Wade Boggs 91.86%
24 Ozzie Smith 91.74%
25 Christy Mathewson 90.71%
26 Rod Carew 90.52%
27 Roberto Alomar 90.01%
Some of whom might well be debatable. Complete list is at http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof... |
|
Mar-27-11 | | Jim Bartle: I <was> joking about Williams and Spahn, by the way, if it wasn't obvious. I am of the general opinion that two many players have been elected to the Hall of Fame. I think it's for the really great players, not the very good over a long period of time. Funny thing is, at least since 1950, it's hard to point to any player and say "this guy shouldn't be in." At least there's still the three-tier classification: 1. Elected in first ballot
2. Elected in later ballots
3. Veteran Committee |
|
Mar-28-11
 | | WannaBe: <Jim Bartle> Okay, if you think there are 'two' many players in the hall, I suggest we only have Honus Wagner. Strictly based only the value of his baseball card alone. =) 1. First time eligibility, and gets in, whether it's by 0.1 vote margin or unanamous, unamous, unianamous, uanamous, u-na-na-mouse! They are in. I don't care how the word is spilled... Dang them spill checkers. 2. See number 1.
3. Well now... Eventually the member(s) of the veterans committee will have to be replaced. Maybe I can get in before they all 'kick the bucket list'? |
|
Mar-28-11
 | | WannaBe: p.s. never, ever, take any of my post(s) here seriously, EVER!! Carry on, as y'all were... =) |
|
Mar-28-11 | | playground player: <Phony Benoni> They found 5% to vote against Babe Ruth??? |
|
Mar-28-11
 | | Phony Benoni: <playground player>And it's kind of surprising that only 2% voted against Ty Cobb. You would have thought he stirred up a lot more animosity than that. Here are a few possible factors: 1) The voting took place in 1936, when Ruth had only been retired for a year. It wasn't impossible that he would come back and play again. 2) The voters in 1936 were probably from the "Old School" Dead Ball Era, who felt that this new-fangled home run craze was ruining the game. 3) Ruth's personal life was not untainted. In those days, that counted for more than Cobb's overt racism. 4) Hatred of the Yankees in general.
5) A certain percentage of voters probably ran out of room on their ballots voting for players they thought were more deserving than Ruth. That's different than consciously voting against Ruth. 6) "Babe" and "Ruth" are girls' names. How could he possibly be a good baseball player? |
|
Mar-28-11 | | Deus Ex Alekhina: Those elections are always rigged anyways, so what's the diff. |
|
Mar-28-11
 | | keypusher: <Phony Benoni> <playground player> <2) The voters in 1936 were probably from the "Old School" Dead Ball Era, who felt that this new-fangled home run craze was ruining the game.> I think that is the key. Also, having read some books from that era, I think most "knowledgeable" people would have rated Cobb ahead of Ruth (and everyone else) for a few reasons. 1. They overrated batting average, at which Cobb was comfortably ahead of Ruth. 2. They overrated hits. Cobb had over 4000, Ruth had under 3000. 3. They didn't value walks. Ruth's walk records stood until McGwire and Bonds, but no one back then noticed. They noticed Ruth's 1330 strikeouts, though. Summing up all of the foregoing, people back then didn't know how to look at a batter's stats and figure out how good he was at generating runs. Once the sabermetricians had made some progress toward cracking that nut, it became clear that Ruth was a far more productive hitter than Cobb. As part of this general lack of sophistication about statistics, people tended to overvalue cumulative stats over "rate" stats. People noticed, for example, that Cobb scored 2,246 runs to Ruth's 2,174. That Ruth had 3000 fewer plate appearances to work with didn't really register. There were other, more defensible reasons that people rated Cobb so highly. Cobb was good at every aspect of baseball offense: bunting, hitting to a spot, hitting the ball hard (over 700 doubles, nearly 300 triples), stealing bases. Ruth was easy to caricature as a fat guy who hit home runs from time to time. Basically people were expressing an aesthetic preference for a kind of baseball where the home run was a rarity, not the be-all and end-all of the game. I have some sympathy for that preference myself. Finally, of course, people gave credit to Cobb for playing his prime years in the dead ball era. That makes sense. Looking to another one of Phony's points, none of the old books I saw so much as mentioned Cobb's racism. And why would they? There was still a color line in 1939. Nolan Ryan getting a higher percentage of the vote than Cobb, Ruth, Aaron, Honus Wagner, Mays, Mantle etc. strikes me as much crazier than Cobb beating Ruth in 1939. I guess the number of voters went up over time, allowing for higher voting percentages. |
|
Mar-28-11
 | | Phony Benoni: <keypusher> Nolan Ryan's high percentage doesn't strike me as that weird. 300 wins, 5700 strikeouts, 7 no-hitters, 27 years--what else can a guy do. Having Cal Ripken ahead of Cobb does surprise me. Without the streak, he might not have gotten in on the first ballot. In fact, looking back at that list of players who got more than 90% of the vote, I note Cobb is the only player elected before 1980 to make the top ten. That must be significant, but I'm not sure of what. By the way, I just noticed today that BaseballReference.com has finally come up with a new stat that is actually meaningful: ELO ratings for baseball players! http://www.baseball-reference.com/f... |
|
Mar-28-11
 | | keypusher: <Phony Benoni: <keypusher> Nolan Ryan's high percentage doesn't strike me as that weird. 300 wins, 5700 strikeouts, 7 no-hitters, 27 years--what else can a guy do.> Win more often than he loses. Be better than his team. Here's a short article showing Ryan falling well short of Ferguson Jenkins and Ted Lyons by those measures, to say nothing of Lefty Grove and Walter Johnson. http://www.homerunweb.com/sabermetr... |
|
Mar-28-11
 | | keypusher: <I guess the number of voters went up over time, allowing for higher voting percentages.> To save others the trouble, allow me to point out that this is a really stupid comment. <In fact, looking back at that list of players who got more than 90% of the vote, I note Cobb is the only player elected before 1980 to make the top ten. That must be significant, but I'm not sure of what.> This is intriguing, though. |
|
Mar-28-11
 | | Phony Benoni: It might be indicative of the effect of increased media coverage. Before 1950, a baseball reporter would rarely see half the players in the major leagues in action, and not for a prolonged period. Now, voters can be much more familiar not only with a player's stats, but with their style of play and impact on a game. I venture to say that 50 years ago (color barrier notwithstanding) Ozzie Smith would have had trouble getting into the Hall of Fame, much less get 90% of the vote. His offensive stats are not that great, and many voters would not have witnessed his defensive wizardry. The result is that "everybody" knows who should go into the Hall and why, and everybody votes for them. At least, that's one theory. I will grant that Nolan Ryan's percentage was unusually high, but it doesn't surprise me. |
|
Mar-28-11 | | Jim Bartle: I think in the mid-80s Ryan was considered an excellent pitcher but not an all-time great. He often had mediocre won-lost records and not-so-great ERAs. Then as he just kept going as the years passed, and his strikeout and no-hitter totals went up to historic levels, people began to see him as great. This idea only grew as he kept pitching well until he was well past 40. I think Ryan gave up the fewest hits per inning of any pitcher. His problem was he also gave up the most walks of all pitchers, about one every two innings, and that led to a lot of runs being scored. |
|
Mar-28-11
 | | Phony Benoni: Top pitchers for H/9 innings:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/l... Ryan indeed tops the list. Andy Messersmith surprises me. Hoyt Wilhelm does not. And look who's at #14. No dead ball era pitchers in the top ten. |
|
Mar-29-11 | | Jim Bartle: Sandy Koufax is second in fewest hits? I guess he was unhittable throughout his career, and he just reduced the number of walks starting in 61-62. |
|
Mar-29-11 | | crawfb5: These two collections:
Game Collection: Pillsbury - Showalter 1897 match Game Collection: Marshall -- Showalter 1909 match are more or less done, barring any corrections or additions that need to be made. |
|
Mar-29-11
 | | keypusher: <crawfb5>
Thanks, not just for the compilations but the fascinating match descriptions as well. |
|
Mar-29-11 | | crawfb5: <keypusher> Glad you enjoyed them. They are part of an ongoing project on early US championship matches (Game Collection: US Championship matches (meta)) suggested by our host, <PB>. Leave it to a librarian to know how to convince someone that whitewashing a fence could be fun... |
|
Mar-29-11 | | Jim Bartle: I guess it's fine that the SF media is all excited about the Giants' season coming up, since it's the first time they've started as defending champions. But people are acting as if the team is a powerhouse with a great lineup. The team was NINTH in runs scored in the NL last year, and I don't see much improvement, unless Posey improves a lot and Sandoval comes back. And even that run total is deceiving, as they had a bunch of really high scoring games. In one stretch in August they scored 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 5, 6, 1, 0, 11, 16, 11. The total looks great, but they scored 3 or less in 7 of 12 games. The pitching was great last year, but you just can't count on it being so consistently strong this year as well. |
|
Mar-29-11
 | | keypusher: <crawfb5>
<Leave it to a librarian to know how to convince someone that whitewashing a fence could be fun...> Well, I reckon PB did his share of fence work. But seriously, thanks to all of you. |
|
 |
 |
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 242 OF 914 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|