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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 52 OF 129 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Feb-27-07 | | Zebra: So it looks as if we nearly have a consensus. |
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| Feb-27-07 | | chessmoron: Will MFO play Qd2? or something else? |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Marco65: <Swapmeet> <hitman84> 12...Qc7 13.h5 Na5 14.g6 hxg6 15.hxg6 Rxh1 16.gxf7+ Kxf7 17.Qf3+ Nf6 18.Qxh1 Nc4 material is even and I don't see any immediate threat to our king. Anyway, who said 13...Na5 is forced? I think the knight is better placed where it is for now and 13...b5 is better. Regarding to the line analysed with <Swapmeet> 12...Qc7 13.h5 b5 14.Nxc6 Qxc6 15.Qd4 Ne5 16.Be2 0-0? 17.h6 I agree with his analysis, White has a strong attack there, but the simple 16...f6 stops all the fun for White:
 click for larger viewIf you like 12...O-O more it's fine with me, but I find it really absurd if someone votes it because it's deemed safer! The only reason why 12...Qc7 may appear so risky is because White's possibilities have been much better analysed than ...O-O, I use to play the "devil's advocate" part when I support a move. For the time being I think the best line that came out of 12...O-O is 13.f4 Nxd4 (<TheAlchemist>'s idea that I also find best) 14.Qxd4 b5:
 click for larger view
What if now 15.h5 and then 16.h6? That is very similar to the ...Qc7 variation that scared everybody with the difference that castling is not an option, is already on the board! 12...Qc7 has been much better analysed so far and defensive resources have been found against different attacks. Can you say the same about 12...O-O? |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Marco65: Again about <12...Qc7 13.h5 b5 14.Nxc6 Qxc6 15.Qd4> also 15...e5 is playable and probably even safer (it's <hitman84>'s idea except for the insertion of 13.h5 b5) |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Zebra: <but I find it really absurd if someone votes it because it's deemed safer!> Speaking for myself, that is not why I am voting for it. Castling in this kind of position is risky, but potentially makes our counter attack stronger. I know I am talking in general terms here, but the lines that have been discussed don't give me a conclusive reason to go one way or the other. |
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Feb-27-07
 | | TheAlchemist: We have about an hour to go. Should we call a timeout and make further analysis of 12...O-O? We can only use three in the first 40 moves, but given that it is an important decision, it may be worth it. |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Swapmeet: I think the timeout would be a wise decision at this point. There is just so much to anaylze. What do we get, 24 hrs? |
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| Feb-27-07 | | hitman84: I agree with <Swapmeet> and vote for time out! |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Zebra: I also support a time out. |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Marco65: As you wish, lady and guys. I don't want to force this decision, it seems I am the only one left in favour of Qc7. Both moves have been played at a high level, I'm sure we won't lose on the spot with either move. Maybe it's wiser to keep the timeout for later on... My last post before the deadline anyway, please decide as you wish |
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Feb-27-07
 | | TheAlchemist: I have officially requested a timeout, so we have a further day to contemplate on our next move and general plans. |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Zebra: As I see it, we're not just deciding between two (both playable) moves, but between two plans. It may be true that <Marco> is the only one currently supporting the non-castling plan, but he (along with others) has done a lot of analysis. I figure another day's discussion will help our understanding of the position even if we go for 0-0 after all. |
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Feb-27-07
 | | TheAlchemist: Just to sum up...
<12...Qc7>
13.h5 b5 14.Nxc6 Qxc6 15.Qd4 Ne5 (15...Rg8 16.a4; 15...e5) 16.Be2 f6 (16...O-O 17.h6; 17.f4 Nc4)  click for larger view13.h5 Na5 14.g6 hxg6 15.hxg6 Rxh1 16.gxf7+ Kxf7 17.Qf3+ Nf6 18.Qxh1 Nc4 Here, I have found two possible improvements, i.e. the simple 16...Kf8 (someone has to show me why it doesn't work) and alternatively 17...Bf6 18.Qxh1 Bxc3+ which also seems better. <12...O-O>
13.f4 Nxd4 14.Qxd4 b5
 click for larger view13.h5 Bxg5
13.Rg1 Qc7 14.h5 b5 15.g6 hxg6 16.hxg6 Nde5 17.f4 Nxg6 18.Qh5 Nxd4 19.Bxd4 b4 20.Ne2 Bb7 21.Rh1 Bh4 22.Rxh4 Nxh4 23.Qxh4 Bxe4 (though this line likely contains many mistakes, plus it results in a dubious ending)  click for larger view13.Rg1 Qc7 14.h5 Nde5 15.f4 Nxd4 16.Bxd4 Nc6 17.g6 (17.Be3) Nxd4 18.gxh7+ Kxh7 19.Qxd4 Bf6  click for larger view13.Qd2 Nxd4 14.Bxd4 b5 15.O-O-O Bb7 16.Bg2 (16.f3) b4  click for larger view13.g6 hxg6 14.h5 Nxd4 15.Bxd4 Bf6
 click for larger view |
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Feb-27-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: It looks like we have a consensus for <o-o>, now, so let's look at White's likely Candidate moves in response. <h5>
<Qh5>
<Bg2>
<Be2>
<g6>
I think <h5> most likely... but let's look at <Qh5>: I think this looks much scarier than it actually is. I doubt they will play it. If <Qh5>, why not <Na5> in response, preventing their white square bishop from occupying the h1 diagonal, and also preparing <Ne5> and then <Nac4>? And if <Bg2>. Nde5/Qe2/Na5 o-o-o/Bd7 Nf3/Nec4? Or something like that... shuffling pieces madly on my board here... |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Swapmeet: <TheAlchemist>
<the simple 16...Kf8 (someone has to show me why it doesn't work)> 17.Nxe6+ wins the queen <17...Bf6 18.Qxh1 Bxc3+> There is still a knight on d4 in this line. Position after 12...Qc7 13.h5 Na5 14.g6 hxg6 15.hxg6 Rxh1 16.gxf7+ Kxf7 17.Qf3+ Nf6 18.Qxh1  click for larger viewI agree with <Marco> that this may be alright, but it wouldn't be my first choice. |
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Feb-27-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: oops time out while I was analyzing/posting!
Very exciting... But one more...
I disagree with <Captain> on most likely continuation from o-o h5 I think this more likely:
o-o/h5 Bxg5/Nxc6 bxc6/Bxg5 Qxg5/h6 g6--
Where we are at least equal and maybe even better!
 click for larger view |
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Feb-27-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: TIME OUT, TIME OUT I vote for one too!
I think it incredibly important that all of us play through ALL of the analysis we have posted and will post during the time out... VERY important to digest each other's opinions... I have just posted two pieces of analysis, and will spend the rest of today's game study time playing through all of my teammate's analysis before posting any more of my own ideas... THIS IS TREMENDOUSLY EXCITING FOLKS!! |
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Feb-27-07
 | | TheAlchemist: <Swapmeet> <17.Nxe6+ wins the queen> That was brutal, LOL. Thanks! I guess I had some variations mixed up (I think I traded the Nc6 and the Nd4 somehow), so please discard that, I guess I set it up the wrong way. Damn. <Jessica>
I didn't go further than Bxg5 in the summary because this line hadn't been mentioned before, that is, if I didn't miss anything like usual, so it was just a suggestion I made, I didn't analyze it properly. Speaking of your line, after 12...O-O 13.h5 Bxg5 14.Nxc6 bxc6 15.Bxg5 Qxg5 and either after 16.h6 g6 17.Qxd6 or immediatly 16.Qxd6 Ne5 is good, I think. |
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Feb-27-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: Thanks for the feedback, <Captain>! I've got to catch up on my colleagues' analysis now... Again, I urge all of us to go through everything we post so that we are analyzing "together" rather than "at each other." Good luck to us all... |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Marco65: <TheAlchemist> Great job really to recap all that! It must have taken you a lot of time, thanks. <jessicafischerqueen> Yes 12...O-O 13.h5 is good for us, that's why they'll never play it! I didn't believe 13.Qh5 could create trouble because it blocks the advance of the h-pawn and doesn't threat anything really, but I tried to answer it with 13...g6 and that's the chaos that I imagined: 14.Qd1 [14.Qh6?? Re8 and 15...Bf8] Nde5 15.f4 Nxd4 16.Bxd4 Nc6 17.h5 e5 18.hxg6!
 click for larger viewand now:
a)18...exd4?? 19.Qh5 and mate;
b)18...fxg6 19.Bc4+ Kh8 20.Qd2! (with the idea 21.Rxh7+! Kxh7 22.Qh2+ Kg7 23.Qh6#) Bg4 21.Qh2 Bh5 22.Be3 is unclear to me; c)18...hxg6 19.Bg1 exf4 20.Qd2 Ne5 21.O-O-O Bg4 22.Qh2 Bh5 and 23...Bxg5 might actually be in Black's favour. Despite that, it is clear that this variation requires a lot of precision (and I doubt I could see everything!). The other two positions that concern me a little after 12...O-O come after 13.f4 Nxd4 14.Qxd4 b5 and 13.g6 hxg6 14.h5 Nxd4 15.Bxd4 Bf6 and I hope someone can work on it while I sleep! See you tomorrow |
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| Feb-27-07 | | Marco65: <jessicafischerqueen> Hey do premium members get a year extension if they change avatar every week? |
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| Feb-27-07 | | chessmoron: <Marco65> Look at me, I changed avatar hundred and hundred of time and what do I get from <CG.com>, nothing; nada; nichts! |
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| Feb-27-07 | | TTLump: wow! you guys! incredible analysis going on here. I was getting ready to post my vote for O-O and I noticed all the detailed analysis and the timeout, so I will try to do my part and provide some meaningful input, but honestly I don't think I can come close to what you have already done ... |
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Feb-27-07
 | | TheAlchemist: <TTLump> Don't worry, anything will be appreciated, if only for starting new debates. |
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Feb-27-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: <Marco>
After <12...o-o>, <13.f4> is not only not a problem it is actually good for us. Instead of playing <13.Nxd4> as in the line you posted:
<12...O-O 13.f4 Nxd4 14.Qxd4 b5 and 13.g6 hxg6 14.h5 Nxd4 15.Bxd4 Bf6>We play <13...e5!>
After this move, <14.fxe5> is refuted by <14... dxf5> <14.f5> cannot be played because of <14...exd4>... White's best response to <13...e5> is probably <14.Nf5>
And after <14.Nf5>, we could play something like <14...exf4 15.Bxf4 Nde5 16.Nxe7 Qxe7>, reaching this position:  click for larger viewNow the f pawn is gone, and White has an isolani---
And from this position, if they play
<17.Be2> we can make a lovely pawn break <17...f5!> in which they cannot take our f pawn-- if they take it directly <18.exf5> then <18.Bxf5>, or if they take it enpassant <18.gxf5> we can play <18...Rxf6> and have a beautiful open file for the rook! And if they try <17.Nd5>, we have <17.Qd8> Any way you look at it, these responses all neutralize any danger from a potential <12...o-o 13.f4>... If they play <13.f4> after we castle kingside we come out at least equal and maybe a tad better, depending on how they respond... potential open diagonal for our light square bishop, or open file for our King rook.. No? God my brain is about busted now.
That's it for me today folks... |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 52 OF 129 ·
Later Kibitzing> |