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| Apr-18-07 | | mckmac: <chessmoron> Thinking is fine.Showing is better.Proving is best. ;) |
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| Apr-18-07 | | chessmoron: From <TheAlchemist> line: 26...d5!? 27.Rf1 Rxf1 28. Rxf1 Nc4 29.Bxc4 dxc4 30.Nxc8 Qxc8 
click for larger viewI'm crossing my fingers and I think we can hold. |
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| Apr-18-07 | | mckmac: <cm> Could you post moves 23.to 26. please.I can't get my bearings. |
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| Apr-18-07 | | Marco65: <chessmoron> I also have problem in understanding what precedes the line you propose. <mckmac> Great analysis. After 23...Kh8 24.h6 g6 25.Rhf1 Rc6 26.Qxb4 d5 27.Qe1 Rxf7 28.fxe5 Rxf1 29.Qxf1 Nxe5 30.Bd4 Bf6 31.Nc3 Rd6 (seems best to me as well) 32.Nxe4 dxe4 33.Qf4 Nd3+! 34.cxd3 now 34...Rxd4 with the threat of ...Bg5 seems even better. |
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| Apr-18-07 | | mckmac: <Marco> What a terrible miss! 34...Rxd4 is better than better--it's winning.The white Queen is tragically out of play,despite her exquisite central posting. |
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Apr-18-07
 | | TheAlchemist: <marco, mckmac> Your combined line seems very good. Although, with the opposite coloured bishops, it would be hard to win, but certainly we couldn't lose after Rxd4 |
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| Apr-18-07 | | Marco65: I realized just now that TheAlchemist's line actually started with 23.Rhf1 Qa5 24.gxf7+, that's different! I guess that's why I didn't understand chessmoron's post, the move numbers don't make sense. I guess he meant 23...Rxf7 24.fxe5 Nxe5 25.Nb6 d5?! and now things can be even worse for us after 26.Nxc8 Qxc8 27.Bxd5 Bxd5 28.Qxd5. But 25...Rc6 is much more interesting:
click for larger viewso I'm afraid also 23...Rxf7 deserves consideration. |
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Apr-18-07
| | TheAlchemist: <Marco> I think we can transpose to that line via 23...Rxf7 24.fxe5 Nxe5 25.Rhf1 Qa5 ... but I guess there should be better altertnatives to Qa5 |
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| Apr-18-07 | | mckmac: That position after 25...Rc6 (a great combine creation from the studio <TA>,<CM> and <Marco>) is amazing.So much is 'the same' but everything is different |
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| Apr-18-07 | | Marco65: <TheAlchemist> 23...Rxf7 24.fxe5 Nxe5 25.Rhf1 here seems much better than 25.Nb6, 25...Qa5 as you said transpose to what you analyzed (leaving us the exchange down), while I couldn't find valid alternatives: 25...Nc4 26.Qd4, 25...d5 26.Nb6, 25...Rc6 26.Qd4. Unless someone finds an improvement, I favour 23...Kh8 |
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| Apr-18-07 | | Zebra: After 25.Rf1 is ...d5 not playable? Sorry if I'm missing sth obvious, but I can't see any dire consequences at first sight. |
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| Apr-18-07 | | Marco65: <Zebra> I think you're right. 23...Rxf7 24.fxe5 Nxe5 25.Rhf1 d5 and now:
a) 26.Nb6 Rc6 [26...Rxf1?! 27.Rxf1 Rc6 28.Nxd5 Kh8 (also 28...Nd3+? 29.Qxd3! Bxd3 30.Nxe7+ Kh8 31.Nxc6 Qe8 32.Bc5  ) 29.Qd4 Nd3+ (wrong idea, but what else?) 30.Kb1 Nc5 31.Nxe7 Qxe7 32.Rf7 ] 27.Rxf7 Nxf7 28.Nxd5
click for larger view
seems playable
b) 26.Bxd5? Bxd5 [and not 26...Rxc2+? 27.Qxc2 Bxc2 28.Bxf7+ Nxf7 29.Rxd8+ Bxd8 30.Kxc2 ] 27.Qxd5 Qxd5 28.Rxd5 Rxf1+  c) 26.Rxf7 Nxf7 27.Bxd5 Bxd5 [27...Rxc2+? 28.Qxc2 Bxc2 29.Bxf7+ Kxf7 30.Rxd8 Bxd8 31.Kxc2 ] 28.Qxd5
click for larger view
is another playable position
But I changed my mind at least 4 times about 23...Rxf7, since we are risking a lot we all need to double check before playing it. |
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| Apr-18-07 | | chessmoron: Got my moves order wrong: 23...Rxf7 24.fxe5 Nxe5 25.Nb6! and then above post. |
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| Apr-18-07 | | Marco65: There was a flaw in my analysis of 23...Kh8 24.h6 g6 25.Rhf1 Rc6 26.fxe5 Nxe5 and now, instead of 27.Qxb4?! that didn't prove good for White, 27.Qd4 and where does the bishop go? Not 27...Bf5? 28.Rxf5 gxf5 29.Rg1 winning. At this point I change my vote to 23...Rxf7. Let's take that damn pawn when we still can. |
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| Apr-18-07 | | mckmac: <Marco> The move order in your original line had white playing 26.Qxb4,so in fact that particular line might be okay. <Marco65 : So I propose 25...Rc6 26.Qxb4 d5 27.Qe1 Rxf7 28.fxe5 Rxf1 29.Qxf1 Nxe5 30.Bd4 Bf6 31.Bxe5 (it was important to analyse this, but might actually deserve a ?!) 31...Bxe5 32.Qf7 Qc8 [32...Rc7? 33.Qe6 Qe7 34.Qxa6] 33.Nc3 Rc7 > |
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| Apr-18-07 | | mckmac: But that's irrelevant if the line 23...Kh8 24.h6 g6 25.Rhf1 Rc6 26.fxe5 Nxe5 and now, 27.Qd4 is as forcing as it appears to be.Important find (imo). |
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| Apr-19-07 | | Marco65: <mckmac> <The move order in your original line had white playing 26.Qxb4> You're right! Of course after 27.Qd4 we can play 27...Bg2 28.Rf2 Bh3 but I just don't like such position, all our counterplay against c2 has vanished. |
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| Apr-19-07 | | mckmac: This is the critical position (pinpointed by Marco) for supporters of 23...Kh8 23...Kh8 24.h6 g6 25.Rhf1 Rc6 26.fxe5 Nxe5 27.Qd4! 
click for larger view Mark me down for 23...Rxf7 |
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| Apr-19-07 | | mckmac: <Marco> I agree with you on that. So much of our counter play,in many of the lines we have looked at, centres on the [Be4]. |
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| Apr-19-07 | | Zebra: I also favour Rxf7 at the moment, though I will try to look in later. When is the deadline actually? The one at the top of the page seems to need updating. |
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Apr-19-07
| | TheAlchemist: <Zebra> Done.
Sorry for the confusion. |
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| Apr-19-07 | | Marco65: I think everybody has it obvious why they can't take the exchange after 23...Rxf7, but just as a safety check: 24.Bxf7+? Kxf7 and now:
a) 25.Rhf1 Rxc2+ 26.Qxc2 Bxc2 27.fxe5+ Kg8 28.Kxc2 Nxe5  b) 25.c3? Qa5 26.b3 bxc3
b1) 27.Qf2 d5 28.fxe5+ Kg8 29.Rdf1 Ba3+ 30.Kd1 c2+ 31.Ke2 Qb5+ 32.Ke1 [32.Kd2 Qd3+ 33.Ke1 Qd1#] 32...Bb4+ 33.Bd2 c1=Q# b2) 27.Qe2 d5 28.Rdg1 Ba3+ 29.Kd1 c2+
b3) 27.Qe1 d5
b4) 27.Qh2 (best) d5 28.Rdf1 Ba3+ 29.Kd1 c2+ 30.Ke2 Qb5+ 31.Kf2 Bxh1 32.Qxh1 c1=Q 33.Rxc1 Bxc1 34.Bxc1 |
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| Apr-19-07 | | Marco65: And after 23...Rxf7 24.fxe5 Nxe5 25.Bxf7+ (the last chance to do that, after 25.Rhf1 d5 we close that diagonal) 25...Nxf7: a) 26.Rhf1 there are no tricks against our king this time, so it just ends again with Q+2P vs 2R, imho although tough to win b) 26.c3 Qa5 and now the only lines that seem different from before are: b1) 27.Nb6? bxc3 28.bxc3 Rxc3+ 29.Kb2 Qa3+ 30.Ka1 Rc2 b2) 27.b3 bxc3 28.Qd4! Bxh1 [I couldn't find anything good against 28...d5 29.Rdg1] 29.Rxh1 and we are much better in any case, or even So, I confirm my choice for 23...Rxf7 |
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| Apr-19-07 | | mckmac: <Marco> I haven't had much time but have 'played through' your first post (23...Rxf7 24.Bxf7+? Kxf7) twice. In line (a) the sequence you show is forcing (imho) and after 28...Nxe5 definitely leaves Black with advantage. There are not many options for White after 25.c3? and i can see no obvious flaws in your proposals.I agree 27.Qh2 is by far the 'best' square for Whites Queen but even that leads to clear advantage to Black.Btw,I like 31...Bxh1 (line [b4])--picking up the h1 rook which has been en pris for ten moves.Well done! <TA> Captain-I probably won't be able to post again before move time. |
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| Apr-19-07 | | Marco65: <mckmac> This time I probably over-analyzed the line, it is evident that either White leaves Rh8 still en-prise and we recover the exchange at the very least, or they allow ...Rxc2+. It was just enough to make sure they don't get too many pawns with a discovered check in the line a) of my first post ("behind the scene" I also examined and discarded 28.exd6). But thanks for double-checking, your analyses are always very accurate, I feel much more confident in my choice now |
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