< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 116 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Jun-09-14
 | | OhioChessFan: Is "not losing" better than "retaining"? The negative construction might be contributing to the awkwardness. Using the current draft:
<On November 12, 1909, both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, predicated on Lasker retaining his title against Carl Schlechter.> Pro: A positive sentence is normally better than a negative. Con: "retaining.....against" doesn't quite flow. |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
Seeing the sentence we decided next to <Tim's>, with his comment "Who talks like that?" Nobody talks like that, except in lecture halls or maybe in scientific journals. It's jarring, and I think we should find a way to rearrange the information so we don't need to use "predicated on" at all. I think it could irritate casual readers of the intro. |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: I think <Ohio's> "contingent upon" sounds a bit better. I don't think there should be a second comma so close together- "November 12, 1909," |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | WCC Editing Project:
I think something else needs to be added.
"On November 12, 1909, both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, predicated on Lasker not losing his title to Carl Schlechter .<9>" This is the first mention of the title match with Schlechter. It comes out of the blue here.
"not losing his upcoming title match with Carl Schlechter. "not losing his previously scheduled title match with Carl Schlechter." "not losing his title in his upcoming match with Schlechther." "not losing his title in the upcoming match with Schlechther." I think it would be better to mention earlier in a separate sentence that the match with Schlechter was already booked. |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | Annie K.: For that part, I'd go with 'not losing his title to Schlechther in their upcoming match'. Thing is, that match with Schlechther is also the elephant in the room WRT the issue of why Lasker didn't play Janowski in 1909, when he first asked for a title match... so the question of where to work that information in can be a delicate one. |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | Annie K.: <Karpova: <It's good if it sounds formal as it was a necessary formality. Lasker may have lost to Schlechter, in fact he was extremely close to losing his title. So <predicated on> appears better to me than <assuming>. An even more formal way of putting it may be in order, but I guess the sentence would become too clumsy with something like <under the condition>. What about <providing that>?>> 'Provided' is pretty good, actually. A more formal version might be 'with the proviso that'... Let's see how these work:
'On November 12, 1909, both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, provided that Lasker did not lose his title meanwhile to Carl Schlechter in their upcoming match.<9>' 'On November 12, 1909, both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, with the proviso that Lasker did not lose his title meanwhile to Carl Schlechter in their upcoming match.<9>' |
|
Jun-09-14 | | Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Janowski 1910 "While Lasker had no objection in principle, he had to leave France before reaching a final decision.<6> They played a second <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) <7> in Paris from October to November, which saw Lasker emerge as the clear winner (+7 -1 =2).<8>" While Lasker had no objection in principle, he had to leave France before reaching a final decision.<6> Additionally, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908.<X> Lasker and Janowski played a second <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) <7> in Paris from October to November, which saw Lasker emerge as the clear winner (+7 -1 =2).<8> Source <X> would become <7> here, so the rest of the footnotes has to be changed accordingly. The source is <5> from Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Schlechter 1910 "Wiener Schachzeitung", December 1908, p. 376. In ANNO / Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/a... |
|
Jun-09-14 | | Karpova: The whole paragraph would then look like this (footnote numbering changed): In May 1909, financed by his wealthy patron Leo Nardus, Janowski played an <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) against Lasker in Paris, which ended drawn (+2 -2 =0). Enthusiastic about the outcome of the match, Nardus proposed a match for the world championship. While Lasker had no objection in principle, he had to leave France before reaching a final decision.<6> Additionally, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908.<7> Lasker and Janowski played a second <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) <8> in Paris from October to November 1909, which saw Lasker emerge as the clear winner (+7 -1 =2).<9> On November 12, 1909 both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, provided that Lasker retained his title in his upcoming match against Schlechter.<10> |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | Annie K.: <Karpova: While Lasker had no objection in principle, he had to leave France before reaching a final decision.<6> Additionally, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908.<X> Lasker and Janowski played a second <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) <7> in Paris from October to November, which saw Lasker emerge as the clear winner (+7 -1 =2).<8>>> This is much better! There is no speculation as to how exactly the Schlechter match may have affected Lasker's response to Janowski, but we are not withholding that relevant information either. Serious improvement. :) I'd just suggest this fine-tuning:
'Additionally, he had already accepted a challenge from Carl Schlechter in November 1908.<X>' |
|
Jun-09-14 | | Boomie: <WCC>
I was going to apologize for forgetting about the "predicate" discussion and wasting everybody's time. Now I see that my gaffe has provoked the Soviet into action. Never mind, then. |
|
Jun-09-14 | | Boomie: Oh, and I agree with Commadore Ohio that "retaining the title" is better than "not losing the title". |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | WCC Editing Project:
<Karpova: While Lasker had no objection in principle, he had to leave France before reaching a final decision.<6> Additionally, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908.<X> Lasker and Janowski played a second <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) <7> in Paris from October to November, which saw Lasker emerge as the clear winner (+7 -1 =2).<8>>> I think that "additionally" isn't the best word choice here. Something plainer is called for. Also, I think the times actual challenges were accepted needs to be clearly distinguished from when those accepted matches were slated to be played. I already know when the matches were played, and I find this somewhat confusing. The chronology has to be clear to a reader who has no idea when Lasker played any of these matches. So something like
<Additionally, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908 to play a championship match in 1910.> <He had also previously accepted Carl Schlechter's challenge in November 1908 to play a championship match in 1910> |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | WCC Editing Project:
I like "provided that" as well:
<'On November 12, 1909, both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, provided that Lasker did not lose his title meanwhile to Carl Schlechter in their upcoming match.<9>> I like this a lot, except that "meanwhile" doesn't fit well here for either flow or sense. Even when it is referring to events at different times, the word "meanwhile" always refers to two events fixed synchronously in lock step, which is not the case here. What's really meant is "did not lose his title in the to Schlechter before he had a chance to play Janowski," and that's not a job that "meanwhile" can easily do. "In the mean time" is better but still not optimal. Better would be to eliminate the need for an extra time marker here altogether. I think "meanwhile" can just be deleted without doing harm to the meaning of the sentence. If we already know when the Lasker-Schlechter match was to be played, (and we definitely should already have been told this), we don't need to insert the word "meanwhile." |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <TimHio>
If <Karpova> does end up choosing to go with something like this: "On November 12, 1909, both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, provided that Lasker did not lose his title meanwhile to Carl Schlechter in their upcoming match." Then in this case, "did not lose" is better than "retained." |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | Annie K.: <Jess> yes, 'meanwhile' can be dropped now the Schlechter match has been properly introduced earlier. I suggested that version before <Karpova> solved that issue. :) I like 'retaining' the title too.
Too tired right now to think about the 'additionally' phrasing - will take another look at the whole thing tomorrow. Meanwhile any awake comrades may continue with any further improvements. ;) |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <Annie: 'On November 12, 1909, both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, provided that Lasker did not lose his title meanwhile to Carl Schlechter in their upcoming match.<9>'> That really flows, but again, there is a tense problem. They did not sign the agreement provided that.... Instead, the match was agreed to take place provided that...... |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | OhioChessFan: How about getting the provisional reference in the first clause? A first try: <On November 12, 1909, both masters signed a provisional agreement for a title match in autumn 1910. That match would take place if Lasker did not lose to Carl Schlechter in a title match scheduled to begin in January 1910.> |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | OhioChessFan: A quibble. I'm not sure why we need to spell out "both" masters. That goes without saying. How about just "they"? |
|
Jun-09-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
<On November 12, 1909, both masters signed a provisional agreement for a title match in autumn 1910. That match would take place if Lasker did not lose to Carl Schlechter in a title match scheduled to begin in January 1910.> I like that a fair bit, but I don't like this:
<agreement <<<for>>> a title match> What about
<On November 12, 1909, both masters signed a provisional agreement <<<to play>>> a title match in autumn 1910. That match would take place if Lasker did not lose to Carl Schlechter in a title match scheduled to begin in January 1910.> |
|
Jun-10-14 | | Karpova: I wonder why my suggestion WCC Editing Project chessforum for the Schlechter match clause has been ignored so far. <Jess: So something like
<Additionally, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908 to play a championship match in 1910.> <He had also previously accepted Carl Schlechter's challenge in November 1908 to play a championship match in 1910>> Looks nice but is not correct. Please see Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Schlechter 1910 for how the negotiations went. |
|
Jun-10-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
Sorry about that:
<In May 1909, financed by his wealthy patron Leo Nardus, Janowski played an <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) against Lasker in Paris, which ended drawn (+2 -2 =0). Enthusiastic about the outcome of the match, Nardus proposed a match for the world championship. While Lasker had no objection in principle, he had to leave France before reaching a final decision.<6> Additionally, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908.<7> Lasker and Janowski played a second <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) <8> in Paris from October to November 1909, which saw Lasker emerge as the clear winner (+7 -1 =2).<9> On November 12, 1909 both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, provided that Lasker retained his title in his upcoming match against Schlechter.<10>> As <Annie> said, it looks good. Working just from your text there, I think you need to clarify when the <Lasker-Schlechter> match was meant to be played? So, "Additionally, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908 to play a match in ________." "Additonally" isn't the best word choice- It's not a word you see often, or at all nowadays. So, maybe <"In addition, he had accepted Carl Schlechter's challenge in November 1908 to play a match in ________."> |
|
Jun-10-14 | | Karpova: The negotiations are a bit more complicated and so too many information may rather be misleading than enlightening. On December 1908, Schlechter and Lasker published the announcement for a match to be played at the end of 1909, together with conditions. On September 1909, they published an announement that a match was planned for December 1909 or either January, February or March 1910. So too much infor would confuse the matter - claiming that the match was to take place at the end of 1909, when it didn't? Noting that they were still negotiating, when they had published match conditions back then? These conditions weren't the final ones, but we don't now when this changed. The best solution seems to be to change the new sentence this way: In addition, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908 to a title match,<7> which was finally played in early 1910. and insert a link to the Schlechter-Lasker match at the end. So the new paragraph would looklike this (please read before commenting): In May 1909, financed by his wealthy patron Leo Nardus, Janowski played an <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) against Lasker in Paris, which ended drawn (+2 -2 =0). Enthusiastic about the outcome of the match, Nardus proposed a match for the world championship. While Lasker had no objection in principle, he had to leave France before reaching a final decision.<6> In addition, he had accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908 to a title match,<7> which was finally played in <early 1910>-<insert match link here>-Lasker - Schlechter World Championship Match (1910). Lasker and Janowski played a second <exhibition match>-<insert match link here>- Lasker - Janowski (1909) <8> in Paris from October to November 1909, which saw Lasker emerge as the clear winner (+7 -1 =2).<9> On November 12, 1909 both masters signed an agreement for a title match in autumn 1910, provided that Lasker retained his title in his upcoming match against Schlechter.<10> |
|
Jun-10-14
 | | Annie K.: In a hurry here so just going to say now that I'd really like the word 'already' included in whatever version of that sentence goes - i.e., < In addition, he had already accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908 to a title match,<7> > to clarify that by the time Janowski asked Lasker for a title match, Lasker was already committed to playing Schlechter; so it's not like Lasker put off Janowski and then Schlechter came along and Lasker accepted his challenge. |
|
Jun-10-14 | | Karpova: The inclusion of <already> is fine with me, although it should be clear from the mentioned dates (Schlechter challenge in November 1908, exhibition match in May 1909). So In addition, he had already accepted Carl Schlechter 's challenge in November 1908 to a title match,<7> which was finally played in <early 1910>-<insert match link here>-Lasker - Schlechter World Championship Match (1910). |
|
Jun-10-14 | | Travis Bickle: Here's a gentle reminder to all you language pontificators. i before e,
Except after c,
Or when sounded as "a,"
As in neighbour and weigh. ; P
Here also is some helpful advice. LOL!
http://youtu.be/pP3VAtGLQms |
|
 |
 |
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 116 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
|
|
|