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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 70 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Feb-20-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: If <Karpova> knows where <Lasker> published, then we could emphasize the public nature of this event? "Lasker published the proposed conditions in the "Little Rock Intelligentser," but Capablanca replied in a private letter that they were unacceptable." Then the "public/private" juxtaposition would be emphasized without the "Pub-Pub" boat? |
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Feb-20-14
 | | OhioChessFan: I was thinking of that possibility too. It might be especially poignant if he published a letter in a magazine and Capa responded with a private letter. |
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Feb-20-14
| | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio> I was thinking the same thing. Luckily we do in fact know where Lasker published the conditions: <11 Emanuel Lasker, "The Evening Post" 22 November 1911. In Winter, "Capablanca" (McFarland 1989), pp.56-57> Unless "The Evening Post" was 'reporting' on the conditions having been published somewhere else. I can't look at my "Capablanca" book until I get back to Korea, but I'm sure <Karpova> will know for sure. |
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| Feb-21-14 | | Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Capablanca 1921 The inclusion of <had> looks fine: "Even prior to his first European tournament, León Paredes had suggested to Lasker that he play a match with Capablanca,<6> but Lasker declined.<7>" <I understand the "Even" conveys a sense of just how strong Capa was, but I don't like it.> No, it shows the hype surrounding Capablanca, see the preceding and following sentences. The other changes look fine:
"Lasker published the proposed conditions,<11> but Capablanca replied in a private letter that they were unacceptable.<12>" I cite Winter: <About two weeks later, Lasker communicated his terms to Capablanca, also publishing them in his 'Evening Post' column off 22 November:> (p. 56) - the <about two weeks later> refers to Lasker's public acknowledgment of the challenge in 'The Evening Post' of November 8. This is also fine:
"The Cuban didn't want to become champion that way,<30> so he managed to convince Lasker to play a match. Lasker agreed, although he insisted on being regarded as the challenger.<31>" ---
<Jess: I think your analysis sounds plausible. Maybe <Edward Winter> is not aware of some of the material you and <dak> gathered on Ermelo. Maybe you could write him a letter explaining your theory? I bet he would publish it if you wrote it.> I think that he is aware of it. As the story always pops up, I guess he wants to find the earliest sources, which draw the connection between Alekhine, drunkenness and a field. As Kmoch does not state, where Alekhine was found, it does not fit in. But Kmoch mentioned other reports which vastly exaggerated the state of affairs, so I guess that Winter is rather looking for them, in order o evaluate their credibility. |
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Feb-21-14
| | OhioChessFan: Everything considered, I like:
<Lasker published the proposed conditions, but Capablanca replied in a private letter that they were unacceptable.> |
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Feb-21-14
| | OhioChessFan: <His first international success was his clear win (+8 -1 =14) over the former world championship challenger in Capablanca - Marshall (1909). He was considered a worthy aspirant for the title of world champion,<1> and reigning champion Emanuel Lasker said "Capablanca has shown himself to be a great player."<4>> The sentence beginning "He was considered...." is a bit of a historical orphan. Perhaps it should begin "After that, he was considered......" |
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| Feb-21-14 | | Boomie: <OhioChessFan: <His first international success was his clear win (+8 -1 =14) over the former world championship challenger in Capablanca - Marshall (1909). He was considered a worthy aspirant for the title of world champion,<1> and reigning champion Emanuel Lasker said "Capablanca has shown himself to be a great player."<4>>
The sentence beginning "He was considered...." is a bit of a historical orphan. Perhaps it should begin "After that, he was considered......"> I would dele the "considered" clause and just go with the Lasker quote. Is "reigning champion" necessary? I would just say <Emanuel Lasker said "Capablanca has shown himself to be a great player."> |
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| Feb-22-14 | | Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Capablanca 1921 The change looks fine:
"After that, he was considered a worthy aspirant for the title of world champion,<1>" I would include the extra information that Lasker was at that time reigning champion, even though most people should know it. It does no harm. |
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Feb-22-14
| | OhioChessFan: I know it's late in the game, but it hit just hit me that "worthy aspirant" is not good. At all. |
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Feb-22-14
| | OhioChessFan: "worthy contender"
"legitimate candidate"
I sort of don't like it at all, since any of the top ten or so are worthy or legitimate or whatever to try to be World Champion. We're talking here about being a specific challenger in a single, specific match, for the World Championship |
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Feb-22-14
| | OhioChessFan: Jess, can you get the latest updates into the draft? P.S. "worthy aspirant" is not good at all. |
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| Feb-22-14 | | Karpova: <OCF: I sort of don't like it at all, since any of the top ten or so are worthy or legitimate or whatever to try to be World Champion.> That's the reason why it should be included.
<OCF: We're talking here about being a specific challenger in a single, specific match, for the World Championship> What we are taking about is Capablanca in the year 1909 - prior to even his first international tournament. The WC match will take place in 1921, in between are two WC matches and one match which almost happened. The point is, that with his match win over Marshall, Capablanca gained his first international reputation and so in a way entered the top ten, if you want (metaphorically). |
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Feb-22-14
| | OhioChessFan: 1. The phrase itself is bad. "worthy aspirant" sounds like someone trying to sound sophisticated and failing. I'm not sure why I never noticed it before, but now that I do, I despise it. 2. I am now coming around to <Boomie> thinking and wondering why it should be included at all. If someone were to beat Kramnik 8-1-14, it would hardly be necessary to point out that they were a worthy candidate for the World Championship or quote Carlsen as saying they were a great player. |
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| Feb-22-14 | | Karpova: Would <worthy contender> be better? It needs to be included, in order to show that Capablanca had gained recognition overseas also. It is the prelude to San Sebastian 1911, and the subsequent (failed) first challenge. Apart from that, I think that it is an asset of the Intro that we can show his growing reputation by citing contemporaneous sources, instead of relying of what one of us may consider "self-evident" (this was what we wanted to avoid). So in order to sacrifice it, there need to be very good reasons. |
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Feb-22-14
| | OhioChessFan: "worthy contender" is better. But the timeframe is so vague that I don't know if it's worth the space. Exactly <when> did Lasker make his statement about Capa? The footnote doesn't mention the year and there isn't an immediate link. A match against Marshall from 1909 is cited, then in the next paragraph a remark made in 1908 is cited. |
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| Feb-22-14 | | Karpova: I propose this sentence now:
After that, he was considered a worthy contender for the title of world champion,<1> and reigning champion <Emanuel Lasker> said "Capablanca has shown himself to be a great player."<4> In this case everything should be clear, as Lasker was specifically referring to the match victory over Marshall, when calling him a great player (the comment was made shortly after the match). |
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| Feb-22-14 | | Boomie: <Karpova>
That looks fine.
You may want to add the date to footnote <4> to indicate which edition of "The Evening Post". |
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Feb-22-14
| | WCC Editing Project: <Steamed Clams>
Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Capablanca 1921 Excellent editing!
I have added the following edits to the mirror, following <Karpova's> decision in each case: #######################
<Even prior to his first European tournament, León Paredes had suggested> ##########################
<Lasker published the proposed conditions,<11> but Capablanca replied in a private letter that they were unacceptable.<12>> ####################################
<The Cuban didn't want to become champion that way,<30> so he managed to convince Lasker to play a match. Lasker agreed, although he insisted on being regarded as the challenger.<31>> ###########################
<After that, he was considered a worthy contender for the title of world champion,<1> and reigning champion <Emanuel Lasker> said "Capablanca has shown himself to be a great player."<4>> ##############################
<Karpova> If I missed anything, be sure to let me know. |
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Feb-22-14
| | WCC Editing Project: <Some comic relief> Game Collection: WCC: Petrosian-Spassky 1969 Off-topic at this juncture, but an interesting phrase employed by <Korchnoi>, reporting for "64" on the second <Petrosian-Spassky> match. Summing up games 1-6, with Spassky leading 3.5 - 2.5: <"I do not think that the World Champion's reserves are exhausted. Throughout the course of six years he has hardly ever considered himself obliged to play at full power. And, if one can so put it, he has become unaccustomed to <<<'manly play.'>>>"> The translator is not listed, but I would be interested to know from a Russian speaker what phrase became "manly play" in English. --Harry Golombek and Peter Clark, "Petrosian vs. Spassky- The World Chess Championships Moscow 1966 and 1969" (Hardinge Simpole 2004), p.72 |
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Feb-22-14
| | OhioChessFan: <karpova: In this case everything should be clear, as Lasker was specifically referring to the match victory over Marshall, when calling him a great player (the comment was made shortly after the match).> I don't draw that conclusion from the narrative. That is the point I think is abundantly not clear. You may know that is what Lasker was specifically referring to, but how would a typical reader know that? |
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| Feb-22-14 | | Boomie: <WCC>
I believe that is equivalent to the Governator's "girly man". |
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Feb-22-14
| | OhioChessFan: How about a one word change:
<After that, he was considered a worthy contender for the title of world champion,<1> and reigning champion Emanuel Lasker <commented> "Capablanca has shown himself to be a great player."> A "comment" has an implication of a response to something already said or happened. I think "commented" strengthens the nexus between what Lasker said and the cause thereof. |
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| Feb-22-14 | | Boomie: <OhioChessFan: How about a one word change> I think that "After that" applies to both parts of the clause. However "commented" might be better than "said" for other reasons. It depends on what we want to emphasize. "Said" is neutral. "Noted" and "commented" implies a response to something. I think it is important what the newspaper article said. We should try to avoid taking quotes out of context to make a point. |
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| Feb-23-14 | | Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Capablanca 1921 <Jess>
Yes, that was all.
Regarding "After that, he was considered a worthy contender for the title of world champion,<1> and reigning champion <Emanuel Lasker> said "Capablanca has shown himself to be a great player."<4>" As Lasker was commenting specifically on the Capablanca-Marshall match, I think that <commented> instead of <said> is ok. <Capablanca has shown himself to be a great player, in that he beat, upon his debut, an opponent as formidable as Marshall with the overwhelming score of 8 to 1. [...]> (Winter, p. 17) So this is the last change:
After that, he was considered a worthy contender for the title of world champion,<1> and reigning champion Emanuel Lasker commented "Capablanca has shown himself to be a great player."<4> |
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| Feb-23-14 | | Karpova: After this last change, Game Collection: WCC: Lasker-Capablanca 1921 should be finished. |
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