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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 84 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <Only after Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate a different lodging > Is this saying Chikirisov gave up his spot at the Twee Staden? If so, "Only after Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to relocate to a different lodging" would make that more clear. |
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| Mar-22-14 | | dakgootje: Hi MyFavoriteChessHistorians!
Is it possible to check the actual text of ref 16, with regards to <"Only after Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate a different lodging did Botvinnik get permission to stay at the Hotel Twee Staden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.<16>">? Because with a certainty of at least 98% it should be Hotel De Twee Steden. For two main reasons: 1. 'Staden' would be a rather odd name. Stad is the singular for city, but the plural is steden. Given that twee means two, the plural should be used. 2. At the time, Hotel De Twee Steden was one of the major, central, luxorious hotels in The Hague. The latter took a bit of time to verify. The existence been documented alright. But there were accounts that it was transformed into a cinema in 1934. Turns out there were 2 locations, <very> near each other. The other location closed its doors in 1951, and was demolished a year later. Heh, and to make checking a bit more fun, sometimes the 'De' was dropped - or it was called "Deux Villes" or "Les Deux Villes" or "Des Deux Villes" [because you can't run a expensive hotel without a mangled French name]. |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: It's <Hotel Twee Staden> on p. 113 of "Achieving the Aim" |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: Just in the <dak> of time. Yes it's misspelled in the original text, as was "Kuiritininen" from the same book. But I changed that to "Duritirrium" so I'm going to change it to <Hotel De Twee Steden> based on your research. Which is always fascinating, by the way.
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<Ohio>
No, it means that the Consul agreed to do the legwork and go out and find a hotel for Mighty Mike that would be more to Mighty Mike's liking. It had nothing to do with where the Consul himself was staying or not staying. If you can find a better way to phrase that sentence I will surely use it. |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: But this may have been a typo in the source itself, as it says <Hotel Twee Staden (Two Cities)>. This raises another question, btw. Why is this sourced to <16> and not <18>, as <18> is pp. 113-114 of "Achieving the Aim"? |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
Yes. I just looked at p.113 a second ago. We can't be too careful about these things. There's also a bracket beside <Hotel Twee Staden> translating it to "Two Cities." |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: <Jess>
The difference between <Dierentuin> and <Twee Staden> is, that <Dierentuin> is correctly spelled that way in "Achieving the Aim" - you introduced the mistake in your text. But as <Twee Staden> is written with <a> instead of <e> in "Achieving the Aim" (which you confirm to have been your source by saying <from the same book.>), you cannot easily correct it in your draft. Perhaps a footnote explaining it may be in order. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
Outstanding thank you!
I changed it to note <18> now. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: Aha-
The Kurititn spelling was from Golombek then. I had assumed that the Duritin was the wrong spelling in Botvinnik's book. The <Twee Staden> is not quoted as direct speech, so we can correct spelling if we need to. It is well within academic convention to correct spelling mistakes in paraphrases from sources that contain spelling mistakes. If it weren't within academic convention, then you could run into this problem: Part of a text quotes Golombek with the "Kuriten" spelling, and a different part of your text sources Botvinnik with the "Duriten" spelling. Correct academic procedure in this case would be to harmonize the spelling- to avoid confusion- by finding out which one was spelled correctly. I trust <dak> has figured this out in the "Twee Stadium" case. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <No, it means that the Consul agreed to do the legwork and go out and find a hotel for Mighty Mike that would be more to Mighty Mike's liking.> I accept that there will always be unanswered questions, but really now, how did a Counsul looking for a hotel make any difference in the decision to let Mike stay at a different hotel? It's almost nonsensical. As for the current draft, the word "Only" implies a causation that I simply don't see. <Only after Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate a different lodging did Botvinnik get permission to stay at the Hotel De Twee Steden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.> While "a different lodging" is okay, "different lodgings" would be more common in English. |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: <Jess>
Even if it seems more than likely that <Twee Steden> was meant, it is still written in your source as <Twee Staden>. You cannot simply correct a possible mistake in your source just like that. I would suggest to leave it as <Twee Staden> and either indicate the problem via footnote or perhaps even introduce a [sic]. But as long as you have no proof that they made a typo (e. g. a later correction somewhere else or in a later edition), or another source with the same information but the name <Twee Steden>, I think it's doubtful to simply change the information provided by Botvinnik himself just like that. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
"different lodgings" is much better thank you!
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<Karpova> Ok, I changed it back to Hotel Twee Staden. |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: <OCF>
The Dutch organizers decided where they had to stay, and the ambassador Valkov and the delegation leader Postnikov told Botvinnik that he should go to Scheveningen. Botvinnik disagreed and they tried to convince him. Then, Chikirisov entered the room and Valkov <had an attitude of respect for him>. Valkov explained the situation to him and Chikirisov, who spoke Dutch, went to the hotel and fixed everything up. So it seems that Botvinnik needed Chikirisov's help against his own countrymen (Valkov and Postnikov), but not the organizers in general. I do not get the impression from p. 113 of "Achieving the Aim" that some Dutch organizers were involved in that issue. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
You are right and it has to be changed.
I put this in now-
"At first, a few members of the Russian delegation insisted that Botvinnik stay with the other players at the Kurhaus. Only after Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate different lodgings did Botvinnik get permission to stay at the Hotel Twee Staden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.<18>" |
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Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: Current:
<At first the organizers refused. Only after Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate different lodgings did Botvinnik get permission to stay at the Hotel Twee Staden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.>What I don't like: "Only" implies a causation that I'm not sure is warranted. The sentence structure is a bit weak and could be more active. Therefore, I suggest:
<At first the organizers refused. But Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate different lodgings, and finally Botvinnik received permission to stay at the Hotel Twee Staden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.> I think "But" softens up the causation, and "finally" is a bit of an emotion word suggesting relief the issue was resolved at last. A little tweak that also seems okay:
<At first the organizers refused. But Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate different lodgings, and Botvinnik eventually received permission to stay at the Hotel Twee Staden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.> "eventually" doesn't seem as dramatic in the narrative, but it does flow a bit better and provides a nexus back to Chikirisov and his search. |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: <Jess>
I think it would do no harm, if you included in the footnote a sentence explaining shortly that "Twee Staden" was most likely a typo for "Twee Steden". Even though the same source was used before. <18 Botvinnik, "Achieving the Aim" pp.113-114. The name "Twee Staden" is possibly a typo for "Twee Steden", as the correct translation of the hotel name is given as "Two Cities", while the Dutch plural for "cities" is "Steden". Furthermore, there was a well-known Hotel Twee Steden in The Hague at that time.> or something like that. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: Okay, an insistence doesn't seem to me to warrant the word "permission". Maybe "approval" is in order. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
Good idea. I put this one in now:
<But Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate different lodgings, and Botvinnik eventually received permission> |
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Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <At first, a few members of the Russian delegation insisted that Botvinnik stay with the other players at the Kurhaus. But after Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate different lodgings, Botvinnik finally received approval to stay at the Hotel Twee Staden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.> |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: I think that Botvinnik makes the causation clear - Chikirisov calmed them down, as he was quite respected, and then spoke to the hotel owner and arranged Botvinnik's stay there. The Soviets had claimed that there were no rooms vacant in hotels in the centre, but Chikirisov, speaking Dutch, could contact them and was successful. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>
Excellent! I just put your note version in the draft. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <At first, a few members of the Russian delegation insisted that Botvinnik stay with the other players at the Kurhaus. But after Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate different lodgings, Botvinnik eventually received approval to stay at the Hotel Twee Staden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.> |
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Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: Permission may be okay, as we are talking about Soviet Russia, after all. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <permission> is the right word when dealing with Soviet chess delegations. This is one of the main points of including the anecdote in the first place. Mike had "svasi" and "friends in high places" (also enemies in high places) and he was not afraid to speak his mind and try to get his own way in situations where other Soviet masters might well have been more circumspect. He'd have been horrified to hear this, but I think he had more than a few personality characteristics in common with Bobby Fischer. |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: Now, this raises another question - did Botvinnik need approval to stay somewhere else? I get the impression that the Soviets thought there was no other possibility (<They tried to convince me that this was in the centre of town, and there was no room in the hotels there.>), and, as none of them spoke Dutch (or was willing to), they couldn't resolve the situation (they possibly didn't want to, but that's not the point). Chikirisov is not said to have obtained a special permission for the different lodgings or the approval of someone, but due to being respected he was being listened to, and the rest of what he did was organizing the different lodgings with the hotel owner. I get the impression that this was not about some official permission granted to Botvinnik, but merely a technicality. |
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Later Kibitzing> |