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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 85 OF 127 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
Jinx! |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: What about this?
At first, a few members of the Russian delegation insisted that Botvinnik stay with the other players at the Kurhaus. But Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to locate different lodgings, and Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel Twee Staden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.<18> |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: This is Chikirisov's involvement according to p. 113 of "Achieving the Aim": <At this point a tall, thin, calm figure appeared in the room. It was our consul Filipp Ivanovich Chikirisov. He behaved in an independent fashion, and the ambassador had an attitude of respect for him. The hubbub died down straight away."What are the difficulties?"
The ambassador explained the situation.
"All right, I can help. I will try to talk to the owner of the Hotel Twee Staden" (Two Cities). The consul spoke Dutch. He went to the hotel and fixed everything up. Everything was fine now.> |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: <Jess>
Your newest suggestion looks much better! |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> one more word, and I think the paraphrase conforms to the actual text as well as it can? <At first, a few members of the Russian delegation insisted that Botvinnik stay with the other players at the Kurhaus. But Soviet consul Filipp Chikirisov offered to <<<help>>> locate different lodgings, and Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel Twee Staden with his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr>. |
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| Mar-22-14 | | Karpova: <Jess>
If you think it is better, that's fine with me. At first glance, it appears to downplay Chikirisov's role a bit though. He went to the hotel, talked to the owner and <fixed everything up>, so he basically did everything. It's even a bit more than just help, isn't it? |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <more than just help> Ok I put it back the first way.
heh |
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Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: If he's going to secure rooms, he should secure them "for" and not "with". |
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| Mar-22-14 | | dakgootje: Unless he barricaded the doors with his family members and seconds :) By the way, in that case it would also need 'and himself'. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | SwitchingQuylthulg: <Karpova: <Jess> Even if it seems more than likely that <Twee Steden> was meant, it is still written in your source as <Twee Staden>. You cannot simply correct a possible mistake in your source just like that. I would suggest to leave it as <Twee Staden> and either indicate the problem via footnote or perhaps even introduce a [sic]. But as long as you have no proof that they made a typo (e. g. a later correction somewhere else or in a later edition), or another source with the same information but the name <Twee Steden>, I think it's doubtful to simply change the information provided by Botvinnik himself just like that.> I think misspelling a hotel's name just because our source does is not a good idea, but if you feel we need a separate source for the correct spelling perhaps http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/i... would do? <Het Kurhaus is de vesting, waarin de schaakmeesters zich verschanst hebben, met uitzondering van de strateeg Botwinnik, die in Hotel <„De Twee Steden"> zijn hoofdkwartier heeft ingericht.> We could use that as a source for the correct spelling of the hotel's name and nothing else. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | SwitchingQuylthulg: Source information for that paper, in case we do cite it... <19 "De Tijd", 25 Mar[ch] 1948, p.2. http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/i...> Another thing. Sometimes we abbreviate months and sometimes we don't, with no logic I can spot. <10 "American Chess Bulletin" (Jan-Feb 1948), p.11. In Winter, "Interregnum."11 "American Chess Bulletin" (March-April 1948), p.25. In Winter, "Interregnum."> Worse, of the two promoted drafts Steinitz-Gunsberg World Championship Match (1890) abbreviates the months more often than not, while Lasker-Capablanca World Championship Match (1921) does the opposite. I think we should try to be consistent from now on. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Swtich> is right about the months in the notes for our two promoted drafts. I'm going to follow a standard American abbreviated "Above 5 letter norm" with no periods, <exactly> as used by "Skinner and Verhoeven" in their Alekhine book. Every draft I send off to <crawfb5> from now on will have this set in the notes, very time: Jan Feb March April May June July Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec ##########################
About the spelling, I think it's a good idea to use <Switch's> new source. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>
<secure with>
I can't find that construction anywhere in the draft? That certainly doesn't mean it's not there though. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: heh
I'm just checking "Skinner and Verhoeven" right now, and they use the abbreviations posted above *and* they also use different abbreviations than those, *and* they also type out the entire name of the month... with no logical pattern that I can determine.
More, it appears that the "American 5 letter set" I posted may only be a norm in my imagination. I'd been doing it that way for so long I suppose I assumed it was a norm. The norm is actually a "4 letter set." Here's the actual American norm, as noted by <Switch>. You'll note that I even got that wrong- it's the British norm that's naked, not the American: Jan Feb Mar Apr May June July Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec
http://www.ego4u.com/en/cram-up/voc... So that's the set we'll use from now on in the notes. We can even footnotes the note abbreviations with the handy web link I posted. Finally- I'll be advising the offices of McFarland Publishing that we're "sending someone over." |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project:
Here is note <18> now: <18> Botvinnik, "Achieving the Aim" pp.113-114. We have corrected the spelling of the hotel in the source text, which was "Twee Staden." According to a contemporary Dutch newspaper account, the correct spelling is "De Twee Steden." "De Tijd", 25 Mar 1948, p.2. http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/i... |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <20,000 Colleagues Under the Sea> I want to do another standardization. I want to write out the full names of the months in the body of our drafts, and use the British abbreviations in the notes. 1. I think written out words are much better aesthetically for the reader's experience. 2. I think it's advantageous to abbreviate the notes- to make them shorter. After all, nobody's ever going to actually read the notes, except <Switch> (long may his shadow continue to grow). I think that there are few enough drafts that I could convince <Daniel> to "back edit" the first two in order to bring them in line with this standardization model. Anyways that's what I'm going to do to the draft here. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: Today is an "E-bay Day."
I won't submit this draft until a few hours after I get home from work tomorrow. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <daktari: By the way, in that case it would also need 'and himself'.> Yeah, I thought about the "and himself". It's a bit awkward and I think people can conclude he was sharing a room with the Mrs. |
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Mar-22-14
 | | OhioChessFan: Referencing this possible edit:
<Veryone'sFavoriteProjectEditor: <secure with> I can't find that construction anywhere in the draft? That certainly doesn't mean it's not there though.> <and Botvinnik was eventually able to <secure> rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden <with> his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.> |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: Aha!
Brilliant...
"for," right?
And I agree with this:
<OhioChessFan: <daktari: By the way, in that case it would also need 'and himself'.>
Yeah, I thought about the "and himself". It's a bit awkward and I think people can conclude he was sharing a room with the Mrs.> Here is an audiovisual aid that will help explain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxd... |
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Mar-22-14
 | | WCC Editing Project: <Speculation>
Colleagues, I'm in this for the long haul. I'm not stopping until every single WCC page is rewritten. I think we should extend "promotion examination" time to <three weeks>. In the third week of Game Collection: WCC: FIDE WCC Tournament 1948 inspection, several serious errors were found and corrected. Opinions wanted. |
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| Mar-23-14 | | Boomie: <Wiki Chippie Chappie: Opinions wanted> I got a million of 'em.
What's the topic?
Oh, right. Promo exclam.
I'm a firm believer in the slow but sure school of editing. Anything worth writing is worth rewriting, I say. The Tale De Twee Steden was certainly a riveting read. |
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Mar-23-14
 | | OhioChessFan: < Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.> Per the "and himself" issue, is it important to know his wife and daughter were there? We could soften the awkwardness of "and himself" by saying < Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his family, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr.> I sort of want a comma after "seconds" but it's a different kind of comma than after the current "daughter" or my proposed "family". Maybe it should be "his seconds" in either case. Maybe a hyphen. Anyway, here's a listing of the current and a few options: 1. Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his wife, daughter, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr. 2. Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his family, and seconds Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr. 3. Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his family and his seconds, Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr. 4. Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his wife, daughter, and his seconds-Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr. 5. Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his family, and his seconds, Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr. 6. Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his family, and his seconds-Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr. (In this version, I don't feel as much need for the comma after family) 7. Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his family and his seconds-Viacheslav Ragozin and Salomon Flohr. And I'm sure you can imagine other versions with various combinations of "family" and hyphenated naming of the seconds, etc. If I had to pick one right now, I'd lean to 7 but I'm not in love with it and might pick something different in 5 minutes. |
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Mar-23-14
 | | OhioChessFan: <By the 10th round Botvinnik led the field by a point and faced Keres.> I know I'm obsessed with commas, and maybe we've discussed this, but I'd like a comma after "round". Have we discussed that? |
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| Mar-23-14 | | dakgootje: <I think misspelling a hotel's name just because our source does is not a good idea, but if you feel we need a separate source for the correct spelling perhaps http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/i... would do? > Oh I do feel silly now.
I'd quickly checked Delpher - but only looked for Botvinnik. Which hardly turned up any articles, because his name tends to be written as Botwinnik in Dutch. Which I had of course forgotten. <OhioMultiplechoiceFan> I'd go for option #3. I can hear myself saying the whole " Botvinnik was eventually able to secure rooms at the Hotel De Twee Steden for his family and his seconds" with the small addendum defining the seconds which would necessitate the comma. It's an information-rich sentence already, so if you'd comma-pause after family, it'd feel a bit runny-onny. < <By the 10th round Botvinnik led the field by a point and faced Keres.>I know I'm obsessed with commas, and maybe we've discussed this, but I'd like a comma after "round". Have we discussed that?> I can see the appeal - but I don't think it's really required. I'd only use a slight pause there when I'd read to someone and I really wanted to be sure they'd get every word. But for general reading purposes the current sentence seems okay to me. |
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