OK, I'll consider it's all OK by your account.

chessgames.com chessforum (kibitz #34949)

<MissScarlett: This is the quiet before the storm....good news is coming....don't worry, I'm not taking over.> chessgames.com chessforum (kibitz #34964)

<Sam Cooke - A Change Is Gonna Come> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEB...

Poor <zamzibore>

Thanks before about the London Classic. One really great tournamernt series in London was also the "Lloyds bank masters". Currently games are missing from several editions of this amazing FIDE Open tournament. Is it possible to source the PGN from Chessbase and get rid of any copyrighted annotations.

E.g. the following game shows the magic of the Trompowsky from the LLoyds bank masters in 1990:

[Event "Lloyds Bank op 14th"]
[Site "London"]
[Date "1990.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Hodgson, Julian M"]
[Black "Pein, Malcolm"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A45"]
[WhiteElo "2540"]
[BlackElo "2420"]
[PlyCount "81"]
[EventDate "1990.08.??"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "10"]
[EventCountry "ENG"]
[SourceTitle "EXT 1997"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1996.11.15"]
[SourceVersion "1"]
[SourceVersionDate "1996.11.15"]
[SourceQuality "1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 Ne4 3. h4 c5 4. dxc5 Qa5+ 5. Nd2 Nxg5 6. hxg5 g6 7. Rh4 Nc6 8. Rc4 Bg7 9. c3 Ne5 10. Nb3 Qc7 11. Rh4 a5 12. a4 b6 13. cxb6 Qxb6 14. Nf3 Nxf3+ 15. exf3 Qe6+ 16. Re4 Qf5 17. Qd2 Bb7 18. O-O-O O-O 19. Rxe7 Bc6 20. Qe3 Rab8 21. Nd4 Qc5 22. Nxc6 Qxc6 23. Bb5 Qa8 24. Rdxd7 Rbd8 25. Qa7 Qc8 26. Qc7 Rxd7 27. Rxd7 Qe8 28. Re7 Qa8 29. Bc4 Kh8 30. Rxf7 Rc8 31. Qb7 Qxb7 32. Rxb7 Be5 33. Be6 Bf4+ 34. Kc2 Rd8 35. Rb5 Rd2+ 36. Kb3 Rxf2 37. Rxa5 h5 38. gxh6 Bc1 39. Kc4 Rxb2 40. g4 Bxh6 41. g5 1-0

It would not be copyright would it just to have the Raw PGNs inside Chessgames.com would it ?! This was a super amazing exciting tournament with many brutal attacking games of chess.

<kingscrusher>

I have long assumed that chess pgns are free of copyright?!

If I go to a football match, describe the action, the statistics and game score in an essay I then publish- did I violate copyright? If I watch a live chess game, record the moves and then do the same thing, did I violate copyright? This isn't the same as copy and pasting somebody else's annotations. It seems to me that if I attend a sporting match- including a chess match- nobody can legally "own" my knowledge of this experience. I am free to tell others about it, both verbally and in writing. I can see more logic to somebody's published annotations being protected by copyright- but not the game score.

HOWEVER I don't know, but I would be very interested to find out the facts.?!

Has there ever been a successful prosecution of a party for publishing a chess pgn that was "under copyright" by a second party?!

It's certainly a longstanding issue. Edward Winter's historical essay on this subject is interesting. It seems the efforts to protect game scores by copyright has been fraught with difficulty. <Emanuel Lasker's> attempts to do this were particularly notable:

Make a movie scene, documentary or fictional, of a man walking in the street. He passes by a store, from which music comes out of the door. If the music is recognizable, the movie maker has to pay for bringing the music in the movie, regardless of its significance.

Make another movie scene at an art museum. The movie could be of a meeting between two lovers. While focusing on them while they are kissing, the camera catches a few of the paintings on the wall. If those paintings are recognizable, the movie maker has to pay for displaying the art works.

In both cases they are just accidental insignificant parts of the movies, yet subject to payment.

<MannBee>

Excellent example.

<Sokrates> ok, but the "fair use" clause in the DMCA, covering news and documentary use for "education," is real eh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASl...

Chess moves are not copyrightable.

That means PGN consisting only of the game's moves are PD (Public Domain).

Annotations are considered creative product, which is similar to any writing, and thus is copyrightable.

Variations are a gray-area, I don't even have a firm opinion.

So - when copying standard PGN, it is best to strip out comments, annotations and variations (then you 100% certain to be PD, excepting...).

PGN tags need some care. If just factual, then fine, copy them over. But if the tags represent derivative work (a term of art), then don't.

Fair use is a long and complicated topic, constantly evolving through case law. Best to keep quoted material short, and part of your own larger work.

I should mention that there is also the concept of assembling a collection as creative product. So game collections could conceivably be viewed as copyrightable. I think there might be a fun analogy with cook books (recipe ingredient lists aren't copyrightable, but the collection of recipes may be (??)).

As for music, this is an even more complicated topic.

Chord progressions can't be copyrighted, but melodies certainly can be. Most published music is protected by umbrella organizations, like BMI or ASCAP. There behemoths serve to collect royalties for their members - and handle the licensing of songs for movies, radio, performance etc.

Law is a funny business, and though McCoy Tyner (and others) were certainly part of the creative process in making "A Love Supreme", only John Coltrane received royalties from the copyright of the music - since he was the sole musician listed as publisher.

This is woefully inadequate, and I didn't even put in any links, just spouting off the top of my head. But it does help the thread a little, and I believe the above accurate (but please feel free to correct me if wrong).

(OK, have to put at least one link in:

That has to be a thorny issue in jazz, where supporting musicians are often creating rather than just reading music. A smaller issue in rock music as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yt...

Part 2: it gets funnier