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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 68 OF 285 ·
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Jan-21-09
 | | lostemperor: LOL yourang! |
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| Jan-21-09 | | Ragh: <How many PLIES did Kasparov once claimed he thinks during a chessgame in general. > <lostemperor> Lets say the answer he said is X. Now, its hard to believe that he always thinks X moves ahead no matter who the opponent is nor how prestigious the tournament is. Lets take 3 scenarios: 1) when he is playing a 2700 player like Anand in Linares.
2) when playing a 2300 rated player in Olympiad.
3) when he is playing a 1900 player in a simul exhibition. You have to agree that X1 > X2 > X3
Not only that, X1(Anand) >= X1(Adams)
There's just so much of variance to this claim of what X could be. It also cannot be ruled out that his answer of what X is, might have been to fend off a pestering journalist, since we know that this question irritates Kasparov a lot. :) Having said all that, my guess for X is 12.
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Jan-21-09
 | | lostemperor: <Ragh> Of course you're right. Kasparov also said it depends on the position. He said there is no answer. We all know this as chess players that it depends on the position. However in a tournament in the 90s, Kasparov said how deep he thinks. Probably he forgot that it irritates him to do so. It was after a game he won. He didn't mention the positions. It must be of course a 'normal' critical position which usually occurs 3 or 4 times during a game. I'm sure he doesn't think in the opening and in easy replies. I understand the confusion but I have you now for 12 moves:) |
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Jan-21-09
 | | lostemperor: Maybe this may make things clearer: Kasparov was comparing himself with the computers of those days (mid 90s) and said how deep he himself thinks in general terms (; |
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| Jan-21-09 | | amadeus: 10 plies seems a good guess to me. |
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| Jan-21-09 | | YouRang: <So I record 7 PLIES <erebdraug> (right?), 9 PLIES <yourang>. > For the record: When I answered 9, I was thinking in terms of *moves* (which is how the question was posed). That would equate to 18 plies. :-) |
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Jan-22-09
 | | lostemperor: Question:<How many plies does a top chess player, Garry Kasparov, think in advance?> Kasparov was working intensively with the top computers, in preparation for his match with IBM supercomputer. Those computers can all calculate at certain plies (one move for one colour). Can Kasparov think as deep as those processors, deeper perhaps or does he rely more on his intuition. I have 7, 10, 12 and 18 plies and will hold this question untill the next restday. In case <YouRang> doesn't come up with something complicated, there is still something to chew about!:) |
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| Jan-22-09 | | heuristic: ply depth is misleading as a metric because not all plys are calculated to the same depth. I thought that calculating prowess with computers is measured by ply depth; but with humans; you use "chunks" stored in the brain. like software, GMs use a similar min-max tree traversal; but GMs do evaluations by retriving chunks from their brain. this allows them to discard nearly all tree branches. that's how a GM plays simuls; they rely on their speed in chunk retrival, not calculation. The major difference in chess skills is due to the number of stored chunks and the ability to access them. |
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Jan-22-09
 | | lostemperor: <heuristic> I use ply because there was confusion with the word move. Many count one move as two plies. A GM indeed evaluates like you said. It is impossible to calculate millions of moves. However Kasparov has compared his depth to the computer's depth in terms of plies! He was specific about it. Not that he calculate millions of moves but selectively he will come to a certain depth of several moves or plies in a human way. |
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Jan-22-09
 | | lostemperor: Now I wonder if this question is ever going to be solved. It looks like there is too little interest on how deep Kasparov claimed to think :) |
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| Jan-22-09 | | heuristic: i agree.
to me, it would have been way cooler if Kasparov had mentioned both ply depth calculated and number of chunks accessed! but we are at a very early stage in being able to measure brain activity and usage; and the day when a GM provides both data is in the far future. |
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| Jan-22-09 | | NakoSonorense: <How many plies does a top chess player ... think in advance?> I'll answer that when I become a top chess player.
But for now, I can say how many plies a patzer like me thinks in advance: 1, maybe 2 if I'm inspired. |
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Jan-23-09
 | | lostemperor: ROUND 5 UDATES: Karjakin won to take sole lead. Van Wely, Dominguez and Aronian also won. CORUS standings:
1. S. Karjakin 3½
2. L. Aronian
2. Kamsky
2. Dominguez
2. Smeets 3
6. M. Carlsen
6. van Wely
6. Radjabov
6. Movsesian 2½
10. D. Stellwagen
10. Ivanchuk
10. Adams
10. Wang 2
14. A. Morozevich
PREDICTIONS standings after 5 rounds:
Maximum score: 101
Score,UserID
41,Ragh
39,SwitchingQuylthulg
39,YouRang
37,DCP23
35,suenteus po 147
33,Appaz
33,chancho
33,Chnebelgrind
33,NakoSonorense
32,cu8sfan
31,armenoid
31,CHESSBOOKIE
31,lostemperor
29,yalie
27,capybara
27,chessmoron
27,kellmano
27,OhioChessFan
27,rogge
25,iron maiden
25,nimh
25,TheGladiatres
24,amadeus
23,Aurora
23,percyblakeney
23,positionalgenius
22,ELO
22,imag
21,Robin01
<Ragh> leading the roller coaster! |
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Jan-23-09
 | | lostemperor: <NakoSonorense> you probably play a lot of one minute games. I think 0 ply when I do that!;) But this is an interesting question also how deep do each of us think in a critiacl position. I know I usually don't count it. Once I did. I think it was 9 or 10 plies of 40 minutes of thought orso. This must be a record since I don't usually think that deep! But now that you mentioned it Nako, it so happens that I made a comment on the Corus A page on Karjakin vs Stellwagen, 2009 14. Bc5! I saw a forced sequence pretty quickly but likely flawed 14.. Bxb2 15 Kxb2 Nc4+ 16 Bxc4 bxc4 17 Bd6 Qb7 18 Bxb8 Qxb8 and white knight is pinned. That is 9 plies of flawed thinking I did in 30 seconds orso:) You can see that the last four plies was 'forced' too what make things easier to see. A kibitzer after me saw one ply deeper <jacqueslaumone: <after 14. Bc5 14.. Bxb2 15 Kxb2 Nc4+ 16 Bxc4 bxc4 17 Bd6 Qb7 18 Bxb8 Qxb8 and white knight is pinned>
Maybe White can play 19 Qc5 at the end of this line, to prevent castling & attack the h5 Knight> Oops, I did not see that and think he's right. Stellwagen played 14 ... d5 what is well thought and probably the most solid and correct reply! |
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Jan-23-09
 | | lostemperor: <heuristic> did you see the documentary with Susan Polgar about how chess GMs think. When playing a blitz game GMs hardly seem to think. Many here, experienced amateurs who play a lot of blitz games also know this. This is probably the chunks you were talking about where GMs take information out. They start exploring the brain. It seems that recognising chess positions is like face recognition. They scanned Susan's brain and found the back part, what is also use for face recognition is active also in her recognising chess positions. We recognise faces in a split second. This way GMs recognise chess positions also. Of course in serious chess, it can take half an hour or more to calculate concrete variations deeply. |
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Jan-23-09
 | | lostemperor: Is it me or does <Ragh> move up in the prediction list everytime Morozevich loses :p |
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Jan-23-09
 | | lostemperor: ROUND 6 UPDATES: An exciting round again: Movsesian, Adams and Radjabov won.
1. Karjakin 4
2. Aronian
2. Dominguez
2. Smeets
2. Radjabov
2. Movsesian 3½
7. Carlsen
7. van Wely
7. Kamsky
7. Adams 3
11. Stellwagen
11. Ivanchuk 2½
13. Wang 2
14. Morozevich 1½
PREDICTIONS STANDINGS after 6 rounds:
Maximum score: 101
<suenteus po 147> and <SwitchingQuylthulg> leading. <lostemperor> and <Ragh> on medal positions. Looking at the course of the tournament so far and 7 rounds to go there is not much to say yet!:) Score,UserID
40,suenteus po 147
40,SwitchingQuylthulg
34,lostemperor
34,Ragh
32,Chnebelgrind
32,yalie
28,DCP23
28,NakoSonorense
28,nimh
28,rogge
27,amadeus
26,Appaz
26,armenoid
26,capybara
26,chancho
26, CHESSBOOKIE
26,iron maiden
26,percyblakeney
25,imag
24,chessmoron
24,OhioChessFan
24,positionalgenius
24,TheGladiatres
24,YouRang
22,Robin01
21,cu8sfan
21,ELO
20,Aurora
20,kellmano
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| Jan-23-09 | | Ragh: <lostemperor: Is it me or does <Ragh> move up in the prediction list everytime Morozevich loses :p> Round 6 contradicts this statement :)
Since I was already at the top, there is no way to go up but go back to the bottom of the table.. a la pendulum clock. |
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| Jan-23-09 | | Ragh: On second thoughts, probably I need to think a ply deeper on my predictions and re-post them here.. |
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Jan-24-09
 | | lostemperor: <Round 6 contradicts this statement :)> Round 6 doesn't contradict that statement. Morozevich was 14th and even though he lost he remained 14th:) |
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Jan-24-09
 | | SwitchingQuylthulg: Any hope of seeing the square ranker standings some round soon? |
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Jan-24-09
 | | lostemperor: <Switch> your wish is my command:) SQUARE RANKER
Score evaluation method: Least Squares of rank deviation
Maximum score: 819
Score,UserID
436,suenteus po 147
420,SwitchingQuylthulg
348,lostemperor
336,Chnebelgrind
326,Ragh
318,yalie
286,armenoid
276,capybara
270,Appaz
258,DCP23
258,rogge
254,percyblakeney
247,imag
246,chancho
244,CHESSBOOKIE
244,iron maiden
236,nimh
236,OhioChessFan
234,YouRang
224,NakoSonorense
223,amadeus
223,cu8sfan
196,TheGladiatres
188,chessmoron
188,Robin01
182,positionalgenius
177,ELO
164,kellmano
160,Aurora |
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Jan-24-09
 | | lostemperor: ROUND 7 UPDATES:
Movsesian and Morozevich won(!) Ivanchuk and Smeets lost(!) Corus standings
1. S. Karjakin
1. Movsesian 4½
3. L. Aronian
3. Dominguez
3. Radjabov 4
6. M. Carlsen
6. van Wely
6. Kamsky
6. Adams
6. Smeets 3½
11. D. Stellwagen 3
12. V. Ivanchuk
12. Morozevich
12. Wang 2½
PREDICTION STANDINGS "halfway":
Score,UserID
46,suenteus po 147
42,SwitchingQuylthulg
40,lostemperor
40,Ragh
38,DCP23
38,yalie
34,Chnebelgrind
34,nimh
32,chancho
32,CHESSBOOKIE
32,NakoSonorense
32,percyblakeney
32,rogge
32,YouRang
31,amadeus
31,imag
30,Appaz
30,armenoid
30,capybara
30,iron maiden
30,positionalgenius
28,OhioChessFan
28,Robin01
28,TheGladiatres
27,cu8sfan
27,ELO
26,Aurora
26,chessmoron
26,kellmano |
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| Jan-24-09 | | Ragh: <Round 6 doesn't contradict that statement. Morozevich was 14th and even though he lost he remained 14th> I disagree. Since he lost, that still contradicts the statement. The statement doesn't mention about his standing, only his win/loss. Let start a debate now ;-) |
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Jan-25-09
 | | lostemperor: You're not a very easy person are you <Ragh>:) |
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