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Louis van Vliet vs Emanuel Lasker
Amsterdam (1889), Amsterdam NED, rd 4, Aug-28
Philidor Defense: Alapin-Blackburne Gambit (C41)  ·  1-0
Move:
Last:

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Given 19 times; par: 43 [what's this?]

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find similar games 1 more L Van Vliet/Lasker game
sac: 20.Nc4 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-27-05  aw1988: He seems to have some development in return.
Dec-27-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: <He seems to have some development in return.> That's right but it is a temporary advantage and if black is not able to transform it in long-term initiative and some eternal positional plus or regain of material, then he has a serious problem. White's plus Pawn e4 also controls important points in the centre which is fine for defence. I like white's side more than black's in this opening, although I agree that 4...Nd7!? is quite interesting idea and can be successful in OTB game, especially against unprepared opponent.
Dec-27-05  aw1988: It's certainly better than the dreadful Bxf3.
Dec-27-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: <It's certainly better than the dreadful Bxf3.> I agree.
Dec-27-05  syracrophy: I'm ok with Honza Cervenka, 3...Bg4? it's a bad move, it's a little opening tricky trap. 3...Bg4? was played too in the famous game Morphy-Duke Braunsweig/Count Isouard, Paris 1858, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Bg4? 4.dxe5 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 dxe5 6.Bc4! Nf6 7.Qb3! and white has already, an attack and a better developing position.

In conclusion, 3...Bg4? its a bad and dubious move that only leads to complications, unfavorable to black

Jul-04-09  sneaky pete: Position after 14.Bf1? ..


click for larger view

What to do?

Oct-06-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <sneaky pete> 14....Ng4 looks promising. :-)
Oct-08-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  kingfu: Anybody a Frank Zappa fan out there? Captain Beefheart's real name in Van Vliet.
Oct-08-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jim Bartle: Right, Don van Vliet. I met him a couple of times in LA through an artist friend of mine (he's a painter as well as a musician). Very normal and friendly, not off the deep end. He has a phenomenal memory (he'd talked for five minutes with a friend of mine ten five years earlier and remembered every detail) and the seeming ability to foretell some future events.
Oct-09-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  kingfu: Zappa and the band on one of the original Austin City Limits doing Muffin Man:

"Girl , you thought he was a man but he was a muffin. Those cries you heard in the night is a result of him stuffing."

Then, Frank rips off one great guitar solo, then, finishes by introducing the band including:

"Captain Beefheart on vocals and madness."

Then Frank says, " Good night Austin wherever you are."

Oct-09-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  kingfu: Bartle, I am jealous. I lived in LA all through the 60s and 70s and never got to meet those guys. I think the best place to experience music back then was The Shrine. There are two Shrines: The Shrine Auditorium which was very nice and hosted several Academy Awards Shows and The Shrine Exposition Hall which was flat and open to do COW shows. I saw a Zappa show in the Auditorium with Ruben and The Jets which was great. Many times Frank would play The Exposition Hall where they could set up three stages all at once. One of the best shows there was Zappa on stage one, Captain Beefheart on stage two and Larry "Wild Man" Fisher on stage three.
Oct-09-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jim Bartle: What about the El Monte Legion Stadium he sings about? Where he picks up on his weezy (she's so fine)?
Oct-11-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  kingfu: Ahhh, the 605 Freeway. It runs through El Monte , Whittier, Santa Fe Springs, Bellflower and other assorted snot holes. There is one song that the liner notes said was played on the back of a flat bed truck! I love LA from the 60s and 70s!!!!
Oct-11-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: <kingfu> <Jim Bartle> I saw Captain Beefhart live around 1971 in my hometown of Providence. The opening act was a bunch of trained chimpanzees.

That was around the time Zappa's "signature" film, 200 Motels, was released.

Oct-16-11  JoergWalter: In this database this game is the earliest appearance of the Alapin-Blackburne gambit. If true would not be Lasker gambit be more appropriate?
Mar-19-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: Considering the outcome, I doubt Lasker would have wanted the gambit named in his honor.

When this round 4 game was played, Lasker had scored 3-0 and was a point ahead of the field. Did he expect to beat van Vliet easily as well, and risk a dubious opening to do so? Or was it just another case of the young Lasker occasionally going bonkers? (For instance, there is the absolutely horrible H Caro vs Lasker, 1890.)

Ironic how Lasker tried to improve on an old Morphy game, while van Vliet won in Morphyesque style by castling on his last move.

Mar-19-12  ughaibu: And if Lasker had played 14...Ng4?
Mar-20-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <ughaibu: And if Lasker had played 14...Ng4?>


click for larger view

Hmm. I see <keypusher> also mentioned this earlier, but he didn't go any further with it. Definitely looks like it could use some investigating.

I fed it to my Bozo 0.5 machine (a late 1990s version of Crafty), and it gave this line: <15.Bxg2 Qh4+ 16.Ke2 Qf2+ 17.Kd3 Nc5+! 18.Nxc5 0-0-0+ 19.Kc2 Ne3+ 20.Kb1 Nxd1 21.Rxd1 Qxg2>


click for larger view

White still has a formal material advantage, but is both tied up and tied down. Can't get much worse than that. Bozo was awarding White +4s at the start of this mess, but the evaluation kept dropping all the way through.

The whole idea is definitely worth some real analysis.

Mar-20-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: Once that knight leaves d5 (or more importantly, guarding e7), it's mate very quickly.
Mar-24-13  ughaibu: So, nobody want to do the real analysis?
Oct-15-13  Bob Loblaw: Real analysis as requested: After 13. Ne6, black's best was 13. .... Qe6 when white can hold his pawn with 14. Bc4 Qe7 15. Qe2 but after 15. ...h4, black has counter play in a complex position. It turns out that Van Vliet's best had Lasker played 13 ... Qe6 lay in returning the pawn for the initiative thus 14. Qb3! Rg2 15. Qe6 fe 16. Nc4 Rh2 17. Rg1.

Lasker's 13 ... Rg2? Was a blunder that should have lost immediately to 14. Kf1! Rg6 15. Nd4. VanVliet's 14 Bf1?? Was a huge gaffe that, as ughaibu suspected, should have lost to 14 .... Ng4!! 15 Bg2 Qh4 16. Ke2 Qf2 17. Kd2 Nc5! 18. Nc5 Rd8 19. Kc2 Ne3 20. Kb1 Nd1 21. Rd1 Qg2 when the threat of b6 followed by Qe2 forces white to make some luft with 22. a3 when 22 ... Qe2 23 Rh1 Rd2 24. Bd2 Qd2 gives black a winning position.

Apr-17-14  ughaibu: Thanks.
Apr-17-14  Eusebius: The rook's movement was probably a wrong idea from the very beginning. 13...Rg2 was "consistent" but a blunder indeed.
Feb-11-15  poorthylacine: Maybe Lasker expected the mistake 14.Bf1, but as indicated by BOB LOBLLAW, after 13.. Rxg2?, 14...Rxh2?? was a blunder to much.

Lasker was only 21 when he participated at his first strong tournament, and his combinative power, unlike the one of Morphy for instance, had still to grow...

Jun-18-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: < poorthylacine: Maybe Lasker expected the mistake 14.Bf1, but as indicated by BOB LOBLLAW, after 13.. Rxg2?, 14...Rxh2?? was a blunder to much. Lasker was only 21 when he participated at his first strong tournament, and his combinative power, unlike the one of Morphy for instance, had still to grow...>

To be fair, Lasker had managed this illustration of combinative power a few days earlier.

Lasker vs J Bauer, 1889

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