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Viswanathan Anand vs Vladimir Kramnik
Anand - Kramnik World Championship Match (2008)  ·  Queen's Gambit Declined: Harrwitz Attack. Two Knights Defense (D37)  ·  1/2-1/2
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 25 OF 25 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-18-08  chessic eric: <acirce> i'm not sure about the computer eval, but if 20.Rac1,Rd6 or something like it i think Kramnik could have pursued ...a5-4 and Nb3, although that knight has less sting w/ no rook on d4.
Oct-18-08  AdrianP: <setnoescapeon> the point I was making is that if in a certain position White has, say, 25 ways to get to equality after 5 moves, but Black has only one, rybka will still just evaluate this as 0.00. This is an extreme example, but the point can be generalised.

Oct-18-08  AdrianP: I think this game is an illustration of how good a practical player Kramnik is, he knows exactly what the position demands, and acts resolutely (g4, h4, g5 etc.) when he needs to. It would have been quite easy to sit still and be worse (as GM Becerra envisaged during the game). Yesterday was similar, K managed to stay in the fight and even take the initiative despite A's dangerous prep, but unfortunately for him it was not enough.
Oct-18-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  acirce: It is the same thing when Rybka says +4 and everybody screams that it is an easy win, it's over, etc. It may <be> winning but perhaps it is an extremely difficult win to find. The eval purely by itself never says anything at all about practical chances.
Oct-18-08  AdrianP: <acirce> I agree entirely.
Oct-18-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  SetNoEscapeOn: <AdrianP>

Definitely, I agree. What I'm saying is that beyond that, the Rybka evals do not equal "the truth" all of the time.

Oct-18-08  AdrianP: <Setnoescape> You don't need to persaude me of that...!

Oct-18-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  acirce: Surprising point of view: "I think it was the worst game from the whole match so far. I didn't like it, I think both players played very badly. I'm sorry..." -- Miguel Illescas

http://www.europe-echecs.com/articl...

http://blip.tv/play/1kTUkEiD+1A

Oct-18-08  VaselineTopLove: Anand said his 21st move Rd4 was slightly inaccurate. What should he have played instead?
Oct-18-08  Red October: 21.Rac1 perhaps
Oct-18-08  drnooo: Unless Anand wins by more than one game, all this match will prove is that 12 games is way too short for a real test. That is, if Krammnik's health is good. There is no good reason both could not have gone for 24 games with a week or so's rest in between. Two wins out of twelve however by Anand should prove fairly well he is the better player, something that was in doubt considering their last two, three years when they were playing about equal with each other in classical games. So far a home prep novelty and three draws has only proven a home prep novelty and that they are otherwise dead level opponents. At least we are probably seeing the two best in the world now, with Carlsen not far off their heels.
Oct-18-08  missingkasparov: move...28 rxd4 not a good move for black nxd4 was better rybka 3 proves it here is the game
Oct-18-08  you vs yourself: <So far a home prep novelty and three draws has only proven a home prep novelty and that they are otherwise dead level opponents.>

It wasn't really home prep novelty that won the game. Kramnik played well to neutralize Anand's home prep and evaluation was dead even when Kramnik started going wrong.

Oct-18-08  missingkasparov: [Event "WORLD CHESS CHAMPIONSHIP 2008"]
[Site "BONN GERMANY"]
[Date "2008.10.18"]
[Round "4"]
[White "ANAND V"]
[Black "KRAMNIK"]
[ECO "D37"]
[Result 0-1

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Be7 5. Bf4 O-O 6. e3 Nbd7 7. a3 c5 book 0s 8. cxd5 Nxd5 9. Nxd5 exd5 10. dxc5 Nxc5 11. Be5 Bf5 12. Be2 Bf6 13. Bxf6 Qxf6 14. Nd4 Ne6 15. Nxf5 Qxf5 16. O-O Rfd8 2:09m 17. Bg4 +0.15/12 2s Qe5 18. Qb3 Nc5 4:20m 19. Qb5 b6 20. Rfd1 Rd6 21. Rd4 a6 22. Qb4 h5 23. Bh3 Rad8 24. g3 g5 25. Rad1 g4 26. Bg2 Ne6 27. R4d3 d4 28. exd4 Nxd4 9s 29. Kh1 0.00/15 1:46m h4 -0.08/15 2:34m 30. Re1 -0.08/15 1:20m Qf5 -0.44/15 3:14m 31. Qd2 -0.76/16 1:39m h3 -0.76/16 43s 32. Be4 -0.76/15 1s Qf6 -0.76/14 1:16m 33. Qf4 -0.77/15 1:43m Qxf4 -0.77/14 1s 34. gxf4 -1.06/17 1:51m f5 -1.52/17 1:00m 35. Bb7 -1.52/18 42s Nf3 -1.52/17 1s 36. Rxd6 -1.51/19 1:11m Rxd6 -1.51/18 1s 37. Bxf3 -1.53/19 1:28m gxf3 -1.53/18 1s 38. Kg1 -1.74/20 1:14m Rd2 -1.74/19 1s 39. Rb1 -1.94/21 1:21m Kf7 -2.62/22 7:07m 40. Kf1 -2.62/21 1:14m Kg6 -2.62/20 1s 41. Ke1
-2.92/22 1:27m Re2+ -2.92/21 1s 42. Kf1 -2.92/21 1s Kh5 -2.92/21 1s 43. b3 -3.09/24 1:23m Ra2 -4.11/24 11:27m 44. Ke1 -4.11/24 1:04m Kg4 -4.11/23 1s 45. a4 -4.11/24 1:06m Re2+ -4.11/23 1s 46. Kf1 -4.11/23 1s Kxf4 -4.11/25 2:27m 47. Rc1 -4.11/25 5:03m Rb2
-4.11/24 1s 48. Rc4+ -4.11/24 10:07m Kg5 -4.11/23 1s 49. Ke1 -4.11/24 8:34m Rxb3 -4.11/23 51s 50. Rc8 -4.11/23 7:19m Rb4 -4.11/22 32s 51. Rg8+ -4.11/22 6:13m Kf4 -4.11/21 1s 52. Rh8 -4.11/22 5:17m Ke4 -4.91/21 6:57m 53. Rxh3 -4.91/19 4:27m Rxa4 -4.91/21 33s 54. Rh4+ -4.91/21 1:26m f4 -4.91/20 1s 55. Rh8 -4.91/21 3:36m a5 -4.91/19 1s 56. Rd8 -4.91/20 3:04m Ra1+ -4.91/18 1s 57. Kd2 -4.91/20 2:36m Ra2+ -5.12/17 57s 58. Ke1 -5.12/16 34s Re2+ -5.10/15 1s 59. Kd1 -5.12/15 17s Rxf2 -5.09/13 1s 0-1

Oct-18-08  EXIDE: What percentage of times has Anand played d4 since he became a GM ?
Oct-18-08  percyblakeney: <Unless Anand wins by more than one game, all this match will prove is that 12 games is way too short for a real test>

Kramnik's matches against Leko and Topalov didn't exactly end up with any Lasker-Janowski results either, and this match is far from over. It could well be that it is Kramnik that wins with a margin of one game instead of Anand.

Oct-18-08  you vs yourself: <EXIDE: What percentage of times has Anand played d4 since he became a GM ?> Around 7%?
Oct-18-08  you vs yourself: <On the next move, Kramnik could have recaptured in the center with his knight, which would have maintained the tension a bit longer.

"I was trying to play for a win but I couldn't see what I could do," he said.

Kramnik decided to take the simplest and clearest draw. He and Anand shook hands almost immediately afterward.>

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5...

Oct-19-08  LaFreaK: Anand should play 7.c5 and for Bobby Fischer it is a won game.
Oct-19-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <seaotter> You have to scroll back I was "replying" to Travis Bickle I think he is who quoted Fischer's "crush the opponent's mind" nonsense** - now my point is that - with all of Fischer's good points* - love of his fellow mam wasn't one - but looking at the truly "successful" chess players - for me - players who enjoyed chess and loved it and played great games and continued to play - most of them - virtually all - would never agree with such a philosophy of "crushing an opponent's mind" (i.e. crushing his or her spirit/ or humiliating them)...

In the pre-match statements the views of Anand and Krmanik and such as Sierawan etc etc were all that they wanted to see was great chess or interesting games - Kramnik and Anand wanted to win, but the commentators and GMs observing were not particularly concerned about the result.

But they both also looked forward to great games, and expressed no enmity for their opponents.

I see Taimanov as great winner - he survived a big match defeat by Fischer but was able to keep things together despite attacks on him for that and could say how he felt he was getting an end game lesson in one game - and Larsen - Larsen continued to play despite being "crushed" - Fischer stopped - except for one match with Spassky - gradually he deteriorated while such as Benko - who stood aside - he 'sacrificed' himself so Fischer could go into the World Champs - also continued to play and live productively and compose great studies and so on - other great players lived good lives but Fischer's life and much of his world view (or out of context quotes and or misquotes of the dubious same) is not one to emulate - nor his sad philosophy of crushing people...

I seems to me that, in contrast to Fischer (of the "women have smaller brains", "Jews plot to take over the world", "Hitler was a great man." (!), "Good job!" (The Twin Towers); "weako patzers" etc...); Anand and Kramnik are dignified men (I haven't heard then raving about Jewish plots or whatever for example) - sure this is battle but it is battle between men not two socio-psychotics.

Anand for now has perhaps played the better chess - the third game was great - but Kramnik's defence has been courageous and ingenious.

* I have written about them a lot if you look back earlier to when Fischer died I gave an - albeit qualified - tribute to Fischer (especaily the great chess player Fischer - as I am not saying he wasn't a great player and a great personality - and very much a "fighter"... or that being a "fighter" is "bad"... it is how one fights.

** But Fischer also said, contradictorily, that psychology in chess was nonsense whereas it is very important (it was for him in 1972) - but that (good psychology or combativeness) doesn't entail stupid boasting or name calling...

Oct-22-08  you vs yourself: GM Miguel Illescas is pretty excited about 21.Rac1. Eventhough both Anand and Kramnik explained in the press conference that the move wouldn't have changed the result, he strongly disagrees and thinks white is a lot better if he played that move.

Kramnik, with a big smile on his face, reminded that he successfully defended a lot worse positions than the one that comes after 21.Rac1.

May-13-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: Bridgeburner chessforum

PART 1

<INTRODUCTION>

Anand vs Kramnik, 2008 is the <fourth game of the 2008 title match>.

Quantitative mapping of this game between these players is below. Figures in brackets immediately after each move are the corrected engine evaluations generated on the forward slide. Each move has been subject to a minimum (usually more, frequently much more) 16 ply evaluation on the reverse slide from the last move of the game, followed by the forward slide from the beginning of the game, again using a 16+ ply engine evaluation on each move.

Opening moves are included in this to generate the necessary hash tables that more comprehensively allow engine analysis. The forward slide smoothed out many, but not all fluctuation in the engines evaluations. The complexity of some variations was very likely too great to enable a fuller reconciliation from the reverse slide. Moreover, the variations and levels in the engines evaluations marked of the opening moves are to some extent an artifact of the engine piggybacking earlier analysis of the game onto opening moves.

<General methods used are described in the bio.>

<Summary>

Both players seemed to be happy to play an essentially uneventful grandmaster draw game after the fury of the third game. Neither side gained more than the narrowest advantage; in fact the highest evaluated advantage mapped by the engine in the game was 0.35 in favor of White after Blacks <6Nbd7> - a well known move in a frequently used opening.

<<Further notes by Visaya:

It looks like a Grandmaster draw. The players must have decided to take a 'break,' and psychologically recharge.>>

May-13-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: Bridgeburner chessforum

PART 2

<THE GAME>

GAME MOVES 1-11:

<1. d4> (=0.17) <1Nf6> (=0.20)

<2. c4> (=0.13) <2e6> (=0.13)

<3. Nf3> (=0.13) <3d5> (=0.11)

<4. Nc3> (=0.13) <4Be7> (=0.16)

<5. Bf4> (=0.08) <50-0> ( 0.31)

<6. e3> ( 0.31) <6Nbd7> ( 0.35)

<7. a3> ( 0.27) <7c5> (=0.24)

<8. cxd5> (=0.05) <8Nxd5> (=0.05)

<9. Nxd5> (=0.05) <9exd5> (=0.05)

<10. dxc5> (=0.05) <10Nxc5> (=0.02)

<11. Be5> (=-0.01) <11Bf5> (=0.12)

(The only move by Black in the CG.com database that has seen Black win a game in this drawish variation)

GAME MOVE 12:

<12. Be2> (=0.12) <12Bf6> (=0.09)

Black played <12Qb6> in K Hulak vs Lputian, 2005 and smashed White in 31 moves.

<12Be4 13. 0-0 Bf6 14. Bxf6 Qxf6 15. Qd4> was played three times for 2 White wins and a draw. <15Qd6> was played in P Tregubov vs A Goloshchapov, 2008 (won by White in 60 moves) while <15Nb3 16. Qxf6 gxf6 17. Rad1 Rac8 18. Bd3> was played twice for one win for White and one draw.

<12a5 13. 0-0 a4 14. Rc1 Be4> was played three times: After <15. Rc3>, Black won in Kohlweyer vs Kasimdzhanov, 2003 in 66 moves, while after <15. Nd4 Bd6 16. Bxd6 Qxd6 17. Qd2> White won on both occasions in L Schandorff vs M Becker, 2006 in 34 moves and in Mamedyarov vs Khenkin, 2005 in 53 moves.

May-13-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: Bridgeburner chessforum

PART 3

GAME MOVE 13:

<13. Bxf6> (=0.09)

<13. 0-0> transposes into the <12Be4> variation noted previously.

GAME MOVE 13-14:

<13Qxf6> (=0.11)

<14. Nd4> (=0.13) <14Ne6> (=0.17)

The only other game in the database (to date) - A Flumbort vs A Goloshchapov, 2007 - that reached this point diverged with <14Be4> and was also drawn, albeit after 21 moves.

GAME MOVES 15-18:

<15. Nxf5> (=0.00) <15Qxc5> (=0.00)

<16. 0-0> (=0.00) <16Rfd8> (=0.15)

<17. Bg4> (=0.00) <17Qe5> (=0.00)

<18. Qb3> (=0.01) <18Nc5> ( 0.28)

Comment: <18d4> was also possible at this stage, and slightly preferred by the engine (=0.03).

For example: <19. Bxe6> quickly leads to a draw after <19Qxe6 (if <19fxe6 20. exd4 Qd5> (capture by either piece at d4 loses either the b7 pawn or the e6 pawn) <21. Qe3> and Black must defend the weak pawn.) 20. Qxe6 (if <20. Qxb7 dxe3 21. fxe3 Qxe3> concedes a slight advantage, although it is also drawish) 20fxe6 21. exd4 Rxd4 22. Rfd1 Rad8 23. Rxd4 Rxd4> and a result is very unlikely.

If <19. Qxb7>, then <19d3> produces interesting complications.

May-13-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: Bridgeburner chessforum

PART 4

The game now flatlines.

GAME MOVES 19-29:

<19. Qb5> ( 0.20) <19b6> (=0.20)

<20. Rfd1> (=0.15) <20Rd6> (=0.15)

<21. Rd4> (=0.00) <21a6> (=0.00)

<22. Qb4> (=0.00) <22h5> (=0.14)

<23. Bh3> (=0.00) <23Rad8> (=0.15)

<24. g3> (=0.15 <24g5> (=0.15)

<25. Rad1> (=0.00) <25g4> (=0.00)

<26. Bg2> ( 0.29) <26Ne6> ( 0.29)

<27. R4d3> ( 0.29) <27d4> ( 0.29)

<28. exd4> ( 0.29) <28Rxd4> (=-0.11)

<29. Rxd4> (=-0.11) <29Rxd4> (=0.00)

Draw agreed.


click for larger view

<CONCLUSION>

<Using method A, the game is weighted at 0, representing 0 bad move and 0 blunders by either Anand or Kramnik.

Using method B, the game is weighted at representing 0 blunders, bad moves, or dubious moves by either Anand or Kramnik.>

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