chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing
Vasyl Ivanchuk vs Magnus Carlsen
Tal Memorial (2011), Moscow RUS, rd 5, Nov-20
Gruenfeld Defense: Brinckmann Attack (D82)  ·  1/2-1/2

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

explore this opening
find similar games 73 more Ivanchuk/Carlsen games
PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: To flip the board (so black is on the bottom) press the "I" key on your keyboard.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 8 OF 8 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-20-11  frogbert: < Disappointing that Magnus could not win this. Makes me wonder if Kasparov's criticism of not working hard enough is true>

tamar, not even carlsen can win drawn positions if the opponent defends perfectly. and against ivanchuk i have yet to see that there ever was a win for black.

also, carlsen usually is among those who work the hardest otb. it's the pre-game work he's been criticised for.

it can be argued that a truelly "professional" player would've managed to squeeze a full point from the games against kramnik and karjakin; personally i'm willing to "excuse" carlsen for not seeing Bc8 against kramnik (but as he wrote himself, he was probably a bit too relaxed after having reached the time control there - he should've tried to reset and really look at the position with fresh eyes after move 40). against karjakin though i think he probably should've been able to concentrate/focus enough before move 40 in order to see that Rxh4?! was flawed as a winning attempt.

37. hxg5! however is insanely complicated in several lines, and no human (not even kasparov in his prime) would be able to see through every possible line there. that's not to say that carlsen (or anybody else) couldn't have played 37. hxg5 on any given day - without being able to calculate it to its conclusion. of course it could've been played. but it's much more human to look for a clearer ending with a huge plus - the problem was that carlsen didn't take the time (or wasn't able to, if you like) to find the right one, the one after 39. Nxh4 (winning) instead of the one after 39. Rxh4 (drawing, against best defence).

still, i think that carlsen, without the first 3 draining games or with a rest day before the game against karjakin, would've had greater chances of finishing what he started yesterday. of course, it's not a great excuse - just an observation of the tough schedule in moscow (equal for everyone, of course) and the tough, complex games carlsen has played (not so equal, as there have been a few not so ambitious games from some players).

in short, i think carlsen must be pretty "cooked" in his head now, after 5 really hard-fought, complex games in 5 days, and i hope the rest day will restore him to a state where he hopefully can win another game or two. :o)

Nov-20-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: <frogbert> Points well taken. I came into the game late when visually Black had a claustrophobic edge.

I do think Magnus could adopt some of Kasparov's suggestions with benefit to himself.

Their sour parting I blame mostly on Kasparov's overbearing attitude, but when Kasparov said Carlsen had the chance to break 2851, I wonder if that was not true.

Nov-20-11  twinlark: 2851 in 2000 is probably more like 2875 these days in any case.
Nov-20-11  twinlark: In terms of expressing relative dominance at any rate.
Nov-20-11  frogbert: <but when Kasparov said Carlsen had the chance to break 2851, I wonder if that was not true.>

kasparov hovered around 2830, he never performed consistently around 2850 - that was (as usual) the result of an <untypical> string of good results, this time from kasparov.

as i argue for current ratings, i find it more interesting around which rating level a player appears consistent (regardless of what we may or may think about rating inflation). in that respect 2851 is only interesting in terms of "fide rating record" - it's not the most interesting rating number in terms of expressing kasparov's level or typical distance to his closest peers.

when kasparov retired, there wasn't a very big gap left either. even if i know there are reasonable cg.com kibitzers that will challenge that view too. :o)

Nov-20-11  bronkenstein: I would say that it`s , at least , bit closer to 2900 (some extremists would argue that 12 years would be enough to actually put it above , mere 49 points =)
Nov-20-11  wordfunph: "Another draw today, this time I'm quite relieved that the position was still a draw after I blundered. Much needed rest day tomorrow."

- Magnus Carlsen

http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/chessne...

Nov-20-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  moronovich: < "Another draw today, this time I'm quite relieved that the position was still a draw after I blundered. Much needed rest day tomorrow.">

<frogbert> As you see Carlsen also thought that he blundered. Keeping the pressure with R+B would give him,though slim,chances for playing for a win and anyway making the draw easier.

Nov-20-11  frogbert: <2851 in 2000 is probably more like 2875 these days in any case.>

in terms of systemic inflation, i think the difference is actually less than that - maybe at most 20 points in the last 10 years. (bronkenstein's wild guess is just that, a wild guess.)

however, even if we can assess the amount of systemic inflation, it can't really be used to "adjust" kasparov's 2850-ish rating from 1999/2000 to a 2011-equivalent. the ratings are relative, and when someone catches up with the rating leader, it will typically impact the ratings of the guys playing catch-up positively and the leader's rating negatively. moreover, a peak rating isn't - as i just argued - not the most interesting rating as a measure of level. (consider radjabov's, karjakin's and nakamura's recent rating peaks as reference.)

example: let's go back to 1998 for a brief moment and consider the rating lists from january that year until july 1999:

january 1998:
1. kasparov 2825 (+5)
2. kramnik 2790 (+20)
3. anand 2770 (+5)
4. topalov 2740 (-5)

july 1998:
1. kasparov 2815 (-10)
2. anand 2795 (+25)
3. kramnik 2780 (-10)

first observation: both kramnik and anand were hovering very close to 2800 and the gap up to kasparov was only 20-30 points. now, does anyone think that kasparov suddenly became a whole lot better sometime in 1999? at the age of 36? i for one do not. what happened rather, was that he had a string of unusually strong results (even for him), without any intervening bad events.

january 1999:
1. kasparov 2812 (-3)
2. anand 2784 (-12)
3. kramnik 2751 (-29)

ok, kramnik has had a rough year, down about 40 points since january 1998. has he become a much weaker player? no, he's had a bad patch.

july 1999:
1. kasparov 2851 (+39)
2. anand 2771 (-13)
3. kramnik 2760 (+10)

kasparov has an amazing 6 months, while anand's dropping back some more points. kramnik recovers slightly. now, do we think that kasparov suddenly is at a level 80-90 points above his closest peers? or did he rather have 6 wonderful months?

for the rest of 1999 kasparov was busy playing against "the world" and some rapid and simul events. no more classical games that year after he reached 2851.

then he had another great 6 months playing corus 2000, linares 2000 and sarajevo 2000, performing on average at ca. 2850, only dropping 2 rating points to 2849. hence, he had a peak period consisting of 3 events in 1999 and the same 3 events in 2000. incidentally his closest peers had a somewhat negative form swing at the same time that kasparov had his positive form swing (january 1999 to june 2000). but anand and kramnik did participate in several of "kasparov's" events in 1999 and 2000. what were the results?

1999:
kasparov - anand 1/2 (hoogoven/waz)
kramnik - kasparov 1/2 (hoogoven/waz)
anand - kasparov 0-1 (linares)
kasparov - anand 1/2 (linares)
kramnik - kasparov 1/2 (linares)
kasparov - kramnik 1/2 (linares)

in sarajevo, neither kramnik nor anand participated

2000:
kasparov - anand 1/2 (corus/waz)
kramnik - kasparov 1/2 (corus/waz)
anand - kasparov 0-1 (linares)
kasparov - anand 1/2 (linares)
kasparov - kramnik 1/2 (linares)
kramnik - kasparov 1/2 (linares)

in sarajevo, neither kramnik nor anand participated

the results look a bit like blueprints of each other, but that's how it was. kasparov managed in these best 12 months of his career (his own judgement) to score 2 wins, 10 draws:

a) 4/6 against anand (2 extra whites)
b) 3/6 against kramnik (2 extra blacks)

so how did he manage to outrate them by 80-90 points (for a brief period of time - as we saw, it was only 20-30 points before kasparov took off on his 2x 6 months of 2850+ performances).

Nov-20-11  frogbert: <As you see Carlsen also thought that he blundered. >

yes, i didn't totally reject the idea that he might have, but i'm still a bit surprised that it was an oversight. anyway, when he can overlook the rather simple pin Rd2 then it tells a lot about the state of his (cooked!) head ... :o)

Nov-20-11  frogbert: to explain those 2 five-month periods of 2850+ performances, i will simply list his wins and a number of his draws:

wins 1999:
reinderman (2542) - kasparov 0-1
kasparov - kasimdzhanov (2595) 1-0
yermolinsky (2597) - kasparov 0-1
kasparov - piket (2609) 1-0
kasparov - sokolov (2624) 1-0
kasparov - van wely (2636) 1-0
timman (2670) - kasparov 0-1

kasparov - short (2697) 1-0
kasparov - topalov (2700) 1-0 (1)
topalov (2700) - kasparov 0-1 (2)
svidler (2713) - kasparov 0-1
kasparov - svidler (2713) 1-0
ivanchuk (2714) - kasparov 0-1
kasparov - ivanchuk (2714) 1-0
adams (2716) - kasparov 0-1
kasparov - adams (2716) 1-0
kasparov - adams (2716) 1-0
kasparov - morozevich (2723) 1-0

shirov (2726) - kasparov 0-1 (3)
anand (2781) - kasparov 0-1 (4)

losses 1999:
sokolov (2610) - kasparov 1-0

wins 2000:
kasparov - bacrot (2594) 1-0
kasparov - sokolov (2637) 1-0
kasparov - van wely (2646) 1-0
kasparov - timman (2655) 1-0
kasparov - polgar (2658) 1-0
kortschnoj (2659) - kasparov 0-1
nikolic (2659) - kasparov 0-1
movsesian (2668) - kasparov 0-1
kasparov - georgiev (2675) 1-0

kasparov - gurevich (2694) 1-0
kasparov - bareev (2709) 1-0
kasparov - morozevich (2748) 1-0

kasparov - shirov (2751) 1-0 (5)
anand (2769) - kasparov 0-1 (6)

in short, the big majority of kasparov's wins came against players that were ca 100-150 points (or more) below him, and only a few came against his closest current or future peers (2 each against shirov, topalov and anand, marked 1-6). there were also a couple players he simply didn't beat in those two years, in several tries (leko and kramnik). see next post for some contrasting draws.

Nov-20-11  frogbert: here are a list of (some) of kasparov's draws in the same period:

selected draws 1999 - june 2000:

1) leko (2694) - kasparov
2) kasparov - leko (2694)
3) kasparov - topalov (2700)
4) topalov (2700) - kasparov
5) topalov (2702) - kasparov
6) kasparov - leko (2725)
7) kasparov - leko (2725)
8) leko - kasparov (2725)
9) shirov (2726) - kasparov
10) shirov (2751) - kasparov
11) shirov (2751) - kasparov
12) kramnik (2751) - kasparov
13) kasparov - kramnik (2751)
14) kramnik (2751) - kasparov
15) kasparov - kramnik (2758)
16) kramnik (2758) - kasparov
17) kramnik (2758) - kasparov
18) kasparov - anand (2769)
19) kasparov - anand (2769)
20) kasparov - anand (2784)
21) kasparov - anand (2784)

the 6 enumerated wins from the previous post can be contrasted with these 21 draws against the same players (except leko and kramnik, who didn't lose a single game out of 11 against kasparov).

so even including the kasparov-client shirov in the above (+2 -0 =3 here) and anand who didn't score very well against kasparov (+2 -0 =4 adv kasparov here) these 27 results against leko, topalov, shirov, kramnik and anand <do not represent rating gain for kasparov>.

it's quite clear that the reason kasparov outrated anand and kramnik by so much in this shorter period was <his score against the "non-contenders" (svidler, adams & co) plus lower-rated players>. those who have been playing for the crown after kasparov was dethroned (kramnik, leko, topalov, anand) did not directly "cause" his jump to and stay at 2850-level in 1999-2000.

interestingly kasparov only managed a single win against leko in 15 tries. he never lost, though ...

in the final post i'll fast-forward to april 2005, the last list in which kasparov had new, rated games.

Nov-20-11  frogbert: i started out by noting the following:

<the ratings are relative, and when someone catches up with the rating leader, it will typically impact the ratings of the guys playing catch-up positively and the leader's rating negatively.>

so, let's look at the july 2000 standings for a moment:

1. kasparov 2849
2. kramnik 2770
3. anand 2762
7. leko 2743
9. topalov 2707

now, let's imagine - hypothetically speaking - that

1) the players listed below kasparov above would reduce the gap between themselves and kasparov in terms of skills (and hence, results and ratings), and

2) all of these players also play a non-significant amount of games <against kasparov>.

given 1) above, all the players' ratings should get closer to each other than they used to be, and given 2) above, it follows logically that <kasparov's rating would go down even if his skills would be unchanged> - simply because his closest peers have improved, individually and as a group.

a consequence of 2) is that kasparov will <perform relatively worse> against these players, which again will have an impact on the <relative measure that ratings is>. in other words, a clear rating leader will lose rating points if he keeps playing against an <improving> group of lower-rated players, <despite keeping his absolute level>. this is a fact, but it seems that few are able to wrap their mind around it ...

[now, in reality i <think> that kasparov faded a little bit towards the end of his active career, mostly due to lack of motivation, but he didn't fall from some 2850-level either, because he was averaging some 2825-30 between 1998 and 2005, not anything 2850-ish.]

anyway, disregarding our hypothetical scenario from above, here are the actual numbers from april 2005:

1. kasparov 2812
2. anand 2785
3. topalov 2778
4. leko 2763
5. kramnik 2753 (*)

as in july 1998 the difference was again only in the 20-40 points range for his closest peers - and with kramnik fit and healthy there would probably have been another player in the 2780-90 area at that time, too.

*) kramnik's rating and results at that time were poorer than they should've been based on his skills - due to his health problems that weren't publicly known back in 2005. he'd been above 2800 between april 2001 and april 2003.

assuming kramnik's "true strength" (disregarding sickness) was in the ballpark of anand's/topalov's in april 2005, there were 3 players within 40 rating points of the world number 1. today (as per current live ratings) there is also exactly 3 players within those 40 rating points of number 1. things haven't changed that much.

Nov-21-11  sicilianhugefun: Hey frogbert that is a very comprehensive information about rating, statistics etc,, keep it up.. by the way are u from FIDE?
Nov-21-11  coolchess1: Very comprehensive analysis by frogbert. The information is very incisive in pointing out various scenarios, which were responsible for high rating difference between Kaspy and his nearest rivals. Good job, frogbert.

Many of us think that everything in the past is simply the best, and that comparison does not stop at chess, but virtually extends to every field.

Nov-21-11  anandrulez: I thought Carlsen actually tried for a win with bxd4 and not a blunder as he tweeted . I have a doubt in this position - if the pawns were on 4th rank instaed of the 5th , is this game a win for White ? Hard to think that rook vs bishop with equal pawn is a draw .
Nov-21-11  notyetagm: <frogbert: <As you see Carlsen also thought that he blundered. > yes, i didn't totally reject the idea that he might have, but i'm still a bit surprised that it was an oversight. anyway, when he can overlook the rather simple pin Rd2 then it tells a lot about the state of his (cooked!) head ... :o)>

The best example *ever* of <PINS AGAINST UNDEFENED PIECES>, because Carlsen overlooked(!).

Nov-21-11  notyetagm:


click for larger view

Nov-21-11  notyetagm: Ivanchuk vs Carlsen, 2011


click for larger view

61 ... ♗c3x♘d4? 62 ♖c2-d2! <pin: undefended d5-rook>


click for larger view


click for larger view

Note how nasty chess can be. Here chess super-genius Carlsen overlooks that he must give the exchange after his blunder 61 ... ♗c3x♘d4?. What did he miss? If he allows White to play ♙x♗, then *White* wins!

http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/t...

<61. Nd4 Bxd4? 62. Rd2! Bc3

62... Rd8? 63. exd4 >

(VARIATION)
62 ... ♖d8-d5? 63 e3x♗d4


click for larger view


click for larger view

And it is *White* who wins because of the *enormous* strength of his passed d-pawn and the vulnerability of the Black kingside pawns to the White king.

An incredibly instructive tactical sequence, because it was missed by a 2820 rated player(!).

Nov-21-11  anandrulez: Any one care to analyse the position with pawns shifting one rank ? I.e black pawn on 5th rank . I think its a win . I thought the main idea Rxe4 doesnt work (assuming kb1 and pawn on b2) is that R cant give a check on q file and force the K to b1 , K will play ka3 with the potential of queening and capturing the Rook ! If that option was not there then black is lost because white can now eat the pawns . prolly - not sure if the black bishop can rescue though - thats possible . Well lol I am just saying this off head so this could be absolute nonsnese to many .
Nov-21-11  bronkenstein: <An incredibly instructive tactical sequence, because it was missed by a 2820 rated player(!).> BTW They finished the game deep into the 7th (!) hour of playing (6.5 hours according to MCs blog).
Nov-21-11  tacticalmonster: Fischer would have converted this Fischer ending into a win. The 2800 nowadays still haven't caught up to his technical virtuosity.
Nov-21-11  rannewman: Tacticalmonster, the extreamly strong endings played at the 60's are due to analasys made after the first time limit. Obvoisly the players at the time were very good at endings (some even outplayed fischer in rook endings etc), but you can't compare players based on (practicly) compeltly diffrent game.
Nov-24-11  notyetagm: Game Collection: PINS AGAINST UNDEFENDED PIECES (UPMP)

Ivanchuk vs Carlsen, 2011 62 Rc2-d2! pins Black d4-bishop against the undef Black d5-rook

Nov-24-11  notyetagm: Game Collection: THE CONVERSION OF AN OUTPOST INTO A PASSED PAWN

Ivanchuk vs Carlsen, 2011 61 ... Bc3xNd4?, 63 e3xBd4 outpost d4-knight => d4-passer

Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 8)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 8 OF 8 ·  Later Kibitzing>

NOTE: Create an account today to post replies and access other powerful features which are available only to registered users. Becoming a member is free, anonymous, and takes less than 1 minute! If you already have a username, then simply login login under your username now to join the discussion.

Please observe our posting guidelines:

  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate, or gibberish posts.
  3. No vitriolic or systematic personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No cyberstalking or malicious posting of negative or private information (doxing/doxxing) of members.
  6. No trolling.
  7. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by moderators, create a false impression of consensus or support, or stage conversations, is prohibited.
  8. Do not degrade Chessgames or any of it's staff/volunteers.

Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.

Blow the Whistle

See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a moderator.


NOTE: Please keep all discussion on-topic. This forum is for this specific game only. To discuss chess or this site in general, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors.
All moderator actions taken are ultimately at the sole discretion of the administration.

This game is type: CLASSICAL. Please report incorrect or missing information by submitting a correction slip to help us improve the quality of our content.

Home | About | Login | Logout | F.A.Q. | Profile | Preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | New Kibitzing | Chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | Privacy Notice | Contact Us

Copyright 2001-2025, Chessgames Services LLC