< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 9 OF 9 ·
|May-30-12|| ||Calar: Probably a transmission error. Instead of 59...Kd6, Kb7 on move 59 or 60 gives Black elementary drawn position.|
|May-30-12|| ||ahmadov: Hope cg.com is aware of this...|
|May-30-12|| ||VargPOD: <Chessgames.com> According to official site moves from 58. are wrong here. The game ended 58.Rh8 Kxc6 59.Rh7 Kd6.|
|May-30-12|| ||Aspirador: And I believe the moves were 47.Kh2 Kg5 48.Rd7
This would explain 48...Nf3+ a bit better, since after 47.Kg2 Kg5 48.Kh2 then Kf4 would have been much easier.
|May-30-12|| ||Aspirador: Btw, the rook ending R+2P vs R was winning for white at some point, I checked with tablebase. This is also surprising, since Svidler was convinced during the live stream that it should be drawn.
60.Kg3! and walking to h7 would have won, but Gelfand played 60.Rh7?|
|May-30-12|| ||knightsacrifice: Well it's not very surprising that Svidler doesn't have the complete tablebase memorised :)|
This game was super-tense, it was a shame for Gelfand to not win it though, Vishy was not on his best here early on. Maybe he was dreaming a bit due to winning game 2 lol, but he woke up in time!
|May-30-12|| ||Poisonpawns: Transmission error, as White is winning easily in the final position. For instance after Rh6 white just checks and queens. On a Black King move to the seventh rank,White play Ra8 and captures the black rook after Rxh7.|
|May-30-12|| ||Poisonpawns: The correct moves are: 58.Rh8 Kc6 59.Rh7 Kd6 draw from the official site
|May-30-12|| ||Aspirador: <Well it's not very surprising that Svidler doesn't have the complete tablebase memorised :)> Yes, but Svidler is usually the king of understatement. :) So his certainty was surprising.|
The weaker side has the Vancura defence in these situations but after Kg3! (instead of Rh7?) black is coming too late for that since he still has to play Kb7 and transfer the rook to the f-file to start checking.
|May-30-12|| ||RookFile: Well, Gelfand certainly had his chances in this game. That's the difference between being champ and not.|
|May-30-12|| ||Aspirador: The correct score is now on http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail...|
The score from the official site (and the current one here) is still incorrect.
|May-31-12|| ||GilesFarnaby: Gelfand had several opportunities to play Nxe4 and d5 of Bxf4 favourably, but he was thinking in strategical terms all around to get a long-term advantage. |
Since he knows he is the slowest thinker, he purposely disregards hopping hither and thither analyzing tactical shots (à la Aronian) and trusts that which has a sure -even if lower- rate of return.
Thus, I think what failed to him, as in the game he lost in 17 moves and with a bunch of other inaccuracies, is that he lacks the stamina for combinations. Nonetheless, this is understandable for a man of his age and physical condition: it must be extremely tiresome to connect that many synapses in a World Championship Match.
|May-31-12|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: @<GilesFarnaby>
don't forget Boris is only a year older than Vishy, so it cannot all be about that dreadful figure "Father Time"!
|May-31-12|| ||GilesFarnaby: <SimonWebbsTiger: don't forget Boris is only a year older than Vishy, so it cannot all be about that dreadful figure "Father Time"!>|
When Mises, aged 84, defeated Dirk van Foreest, aged 86, the latter claimed that 'youthness had prevailed'.
|May-31-12|| ||SimonWebbsTiger: @<Giles>
hehe, very sweet. Never heard that quip before.
Apropos Mises, I have always loved his quip: Since I have lived the Biblical three score years and ten, I might as well go on living forever.
|May-31-12|| ||PYCJacobson: This game will haunt Gelfand for many years ... he had clear winning chances twice - in middle game (when he played 26.Rxb8 instead of Nxe4) and right at the end (when he blundered with 61.Rh7 instead of Kg3 which wins). It could have been a turning point, esp. if he won through Nxe4 and winning the terrible bishop on b8 - which would have echoed game 7 and might have turned the psychological advantage Gelfand's way.
He was deserving of the title after the classical games, which I would say he won on "points" in the boxing sense of the word, but he simply could not match Anand's fluency and sound time management in rapid play.|
Gelfand has earned a lot of respect from this match, and deservedly so!
|May-31-12|| ||rishicomplex: What is the winning algorithm after Kg3? It seems drawn because the white king cannot escape the rook checks except at h7, and once he is on h7/h8 the black rook can prevent him from leaving the h file.|
|May-31-12|| ||Eyal: <This game will haunt Gelfand for many years ... he had clear winning chances twice - in middle game (when he played 26.Rxb8 instead of Nxe4) and right at the end (when he blundered with 61.Rh7 instead of Kg3 which wins).>|
Yeah - and those were clear wins, not even "chances".
click for larger view
Here, 26.Nxe4 (26.dxe5?? Qxc5+) wins easily; Black can actually save the piece for the moment with 26...Nd7 (defending the bishop on b8), but after 27.Nd6 the placement of his pieces is so awkward and disharmonious that he's completely helpless - one winning idea by White is Bd3-f5.
click for larger view
Here, 61.Kg3! is winning. If the black king rushes to the K-side as in the game, he's a tempo late: 61...Kd7 62.h7 Ke7 63.Ra8 Rxh7 64.Ra7+; if he waits on the Q-side (61...Kb7) to avoid this skewer idea, White's king rushes up and can hide from checks on h7, followed by Rg8, Rg6, Kg7 and the h-pawn runs.
In fact, according to TB, Anand's 51th move was already a losing mistake (...Kf4! is the right move), Gelfand missed a win on move 52 (Rc8! is correct), and Anand made another losing mistake on move 52 (...Rc2+! is correct). But all these were very subtle mistakes which are easy to make even in a classical game. 61.Kg3, on the other hand, was considerably less difficult to calculate (the video shows that Gelfand played 61.Rh7?? almost instantly, when he had about 35 seconds left on the clock).
|May-31-12|| ||Aspirador: <Here, 61.Kg3! is winning. If the black king rushes to the K-side as in the game, he's a tempo late: 61...Kd7 62.h7 Ke7 63.Ra8 Rxh7 64.Ra7+; if he waits on the Q-side (61...Kb7) to avoid this skewer idea, White's king rushes up and can hide from checks on h7, followed by Rg8, Rg6, Kg7 and the h-pawn runs.>|
The point is that after 61.Kg3 Kb7 62.Kg4 Rh1 63.Kg5! the white king reaches the pawn in time. If black's rook were on c1 in this position, he can draw with Rc5+! (the Vancura defence). But 63... Rc1 is too late as it loses to 64.Rf8.
I don't want to be a nuisance, but the score is still incorrect. 47.Kh2 Kg5 48. Rd7 was played and not 47.Kg2 Kg5 48.Kh2.
|May-31-12|| ||Eyal: <Aspirador> Thanks for pointing this out; I missed your previous post about the Vancura defence idea. |
Regarding the wrong score - you're not a nuisance at all, it's simply not effective to post such corrections here, because they don't go and check every page for such things... If you want this to be actually fixed, you should either use the correction slip function at the bottom of the page, or even post it directly at chessgames.com chessforum, since this is an especially important and high-profile game (as I did yesterday with regard to moves 51-63).
|May-31-12|| ||Aspirador: Hi Eyal, yes I just submitted a correction ticket. Thanks!|
|Jun-10-12|| ||acirce: <I'm sure that when I was nine, I would win this ending!> http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/b...|
|Jun-20-12|| ||Eyal: From the Galfand interview:
<How do you explain this rook ending in the third tiebreak game – was it the pressure?
I didn't feel like I was under pressure, it was a hallucination. You know, I started studying rook endings at the age of nine. I'm sure that when I was nine, I would win this ending! I played a game against Tony Miles, and he was not familiar with an ending which I knew at the age of nine.
Were you afraid he would reach the Vancura position?
No, it was obvious that the Vancura was not possible. It was just a hallucination, and I think I had about twenty seconds left there. [he actually had 35, and he made the move instantly]> (http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/b...)
From the Anand interview:
<And then in the third game you were hanging by a thread. To what extent did you actually see that even this rook ending was lost?
I was extremely surprised by Rh7, because somehow I was hallucinating that I was getting a Vancura. So I found it very funny that you had the same thought, at least from your question to Boris. In fact when I got back to the room, I told the guys. They said: "Nice escape!" and I said "Well, but I'm getting a Vancura," and they said: "No, you're not, you're not getting anything remotely, you're getting a Vancura like three tempi down, forget about it." Only later, when I got back to the hotel, I realized how lucky I'd been. It again strikes me that sometimes, even if you're deluded, it can give you confidence and confidence is the most useful thing in chess. But of course, Gelfand should have almost the same hallucination.
- He told me he didn't really play Rh7 to avoid a Vancura, but he couldn't really explain why he played it.
It was inexplicable, because Rh7 is about the only move that draws. Even a king move keeps the win. So it seems that White can even afford to lose a tempo but losing two tempi is too much.
I had the feeling I had nailed the draw, and then I got myself confused. First of all, it's just a trivial draw if I play a Kh5 somewhere, it's just a trivial draw. There were just a lot of things wrong. Both of us were hallucinating a lot. But still at the end of it, if you ask me, I would have to say that I was lucky. You can't pretend that there's some logic to all this.> (http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/v...)
|Nov-06-16|| ||offramp: There used to be an advert on telly for Poli-grip, with the catch-line, "Contains fluoride". To that I always used to add, "...But it's too late!"|
Here Gelfand, in game 15 of the match, decides that he should make some sort of effort to win the World title that he had qualified to play for.
"...But it's too late!"
|Jun-18-18|| ||Penguincw: Video analysis of this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0H....|
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