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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 7 OF 7 ·
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| Feb-20-07 |
| hscer: whatthefat, thanks a plenty... I was aware of that line through 5. f4 but still had trouble because 5... Ng6 |
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Feb-21-07
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| whatthefat: <hscer>
In the case of 5...Ng6, I think common sense development is the best approach for White, with Nf3, Bd3, Nc3 in an appropriate order. After all, Black is the one with no central presence; White need only consolidate the position. White should not fear Black playing ...Bb4+ and ...Bxc3, since the doubled c-pawns provide control of the centre, and can be a dangerous weapon in themselves. I think a good model game is I Novikov vs Blatny, 1987, both for the opening play, and for some of the tactical possibilities in the middlegame. |
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Mar-10-07
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| jahhaj: I just love the Budapest. Every time it is played against me I think I'm going to win. How <NateDawg> can think the main line Rubinstein variation 
click for larger viewis anything other than an extremely comfortable position for White is beyond me. White has a clear plan and all the chances. Opening Explorer statistics would seem to agree with me. |
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Apr-22-07
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| drkodos: In 25+ years I have never seen it OTB against me. Then in two consectitve tournaments in less than a week, I see it FIVE Times with all five whites I get to play. The first outing was the Ne4 variation where I played a3 and got lucky when he (unsoundly) sacked the e4 N on f2. The next four games all saw me trying the Bf4 line (which I only knew to that point-move!). Now after seeing the above line posited by Whatthefat, I see I was playing right into what the opponent wanted with the Bf4 and now I think I will study up on that Alekine variation. Of course now that I finally will commit to study this opening, I fully expect to never see it again.....hehe. |
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Apr-22-07
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| drkodos: Also, against Ne4 I think a3 is better played AFTER 4. Nf3. If 4. a3 then Black can actually equalize with Qh4+ follwed by Qh5 with good central pressure. If first White plays Nf3 (stopping Qh4), then 5. a3, Black is in major trouble and the line plays itself for white. If Black tries 4. ....Bb4+, then Nbd2, followed by 5. a3 leads to black exchanging the offside Ne4. If Black exchanges the dark squared bushop in this variotion, he has very little hopes to even hold a draw, so the B usually goes all the way to f8, leaving white up a pawn, and several tempos. |
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May-06-07
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| whatthefat: <drkodos: If 4. a3 then Black can actually equalize with Qh4+ follwed by Qh5 with good central pressure.> I think Black is even struggling here, as long as White sticks to the same principles as in the Alekhine variation - that is, give back the extra pawn for a clear lead in development. After 3...Ne4 4.a3 Qh4 5.g3 Qh5 6.Bg2 Qxe5 7.Qc2 (7.Nf3 also looks strong) 
click for larger viewBlack must either retreat the knight, as in Van Wely vs Alburt, 1994, or commit to 7...f5. In either case, White is ready to gain a tempo on the black queen with Bf4 or Nf3. |
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| Sep-24-07 |
| 2021: 45 of A51's games ended in 20 moves or less, 8 of which white won, 26 (!) of which black won, and 11 draws. http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... |
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| Sep-24-07 |
| centercounter: <drkodos: If 4. a3 then Black can actually equalize with Qh4+ follwed by Qh5 with good central pressure.> Untrue. I refuted that many years ago and it was published by Donaldson in either ICE or NIC (I can't remember). White's Qd5 leaves Black smoldering. The stem game was O'Kelly-Bisguier that ended really without a fight. The book on the Budapest that gives Black counterchances assumes very generous play on White's part. |
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| Sep-24-07 |
| centercounter: The Wikstrom (that ... Nbc6 line) should be a forced draw if accepted. Another fun line I've seen is ... Bc5 in its place, but then Qh5 refutes. I've been playing the Budapest for over 20 years with good success (without even bothering to study it). It's fully sound, and more importantly, fun. The Nd2 line in the main line should be met with the speculative d6 as regaining the Pawn simply leaves White with the 2 B's and Black playing for only a draw. (assuming, with my comments, that anyone who's in this particular chat is already conversant in the Budapest main lines) |
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Sep-25-07
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| whatthefat: <centercounter: The Wikstrom (that ... Nbc6 line) should be a forced draw if accepted.> No, the Wikstrom has been flat out refuted by Nunn's improvement - see my post above. |
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Nov-15-07
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| drkodos: Ok: So 4. a3 against the Obstreperous Ne4, and what is white's best bet for a pull in the main line? I've been playing the Bf4 line and accepting the doubled c pawns, then playing Bg5 to pin the f6 Knight after the pawn exchanges on f6. SO far so good, but haven't tested it against strong players from the black side. Anyone have any insight? |
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Nov-15-07
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| drkodos: To clarify:
d4 Nf6
c4 e5
de Ng4
Bf4 Bb4
Nc3 Bxc3
bc Nc6
Nf3 Qe7
Qd5 f6
fxe Nf6
Qd3 d6
Bg5
ECO: A52
Is there a better try for white? I know playing e3 allows black some tricks and traps, but are the 11. g3 lines the ones where White is best or is this Bishop deployment the route for maintaining a telling white advantage? Or, is there another Crush? I'm just not convinced by the early e4 lines after seeing some recent black games. |
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Apr-09-08
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| Harvestman: One useful side-effect of playing the Budapest that I've found is that white players often seem disproportionately afraid of the opening. You can see them thinking "Oh no, the Budapest gambit. I don't know how to face that, and my opponent obviously knows it". As a result, the commonest response to 2...e5 in my experience is 3.d5, which gives black a comfortable game after 3...Bc5. Here's an example in which I got a significant lead in development, gave all my advantage back by messing about with my bishops, and then won when my opponent made some mistakes. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.d5 Bc5 4.e3 d6 5.Nc3 Bf5 6.Nf3 (6.Bd3 is the only move given in the Chessgames database) 0-0 7.Be2 Bg4 8.h3 Bd7 9.e4 Bb4 10.Qc2 Bxc3+ 11.bxc3 Na6 12.Ba3 Re8 13.0-0 b6 14.Rab1 Nc5 15.Bxc5 bxc5 16.Rb2 Rb8 17.Rfb1 Rb6 18.Nd2 Qa8 19.Rxb6 axb6 20.Rf1 Qa3 21.f4 Ba4 22.Qd3 Qxa2 23.fxe5 Nd7 (the threat of the exchange sacrifice on f6 scared me off from 23...Rxe5, but black could get away with it) 24.Nf3 Nxe5 25.Nxe5 Rxe5 26.Qf3 Be8 27.Qg4 Qd2 28.Ra1? Qe3+ 29.Kh2 Qxe4 30.Qc8? Qxe2 31.Ra8 Re7 0-1 |
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May-06-08
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| KingG: <whatthefat> Thanks for your recommendation and analysis against the Budepest. Very interesting. I have to say that I have only ever played against this in blitz, and there I just tend to play 3...Ng4 4.Nf3 Bc5 5.e3 Nc6 6.Nc3, with a slight positional advantage in my opinion, although Black is certainly solid. But I think this is a nice position to play in blitz as White. You can play a lot of 'automatic' moves which don't require too much thought, whereas it seems to me Black needs to work a bit harder to get some active play. But I will certainly be giving your e4, f4 idea a go, and also <euripides>'s plan of 5...Nh3 in the variation I currently play. |
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May-24-08
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| KingG: <whatthefat> I tried your suggestion of 4.e4, and unsurprisingly my opponent wasn't keen on going into the line you mentioned above. Instead he tried 4...h5, and I stupidly played 5.f4?!(my only excuse was it was a blitz game), and got a quite dubious position after 5...Bc5. Luckily I still managed to win, and afterwards realised that almost anything other than 5.f4 should give a good game, but I was wondering what you recommended as best for White. |
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Jul-27-08
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| whatthefat: <KingG>
I haven't actually seen 4...h5 before, and it looks like an interesting idea. 5.Nh3 is Fritz's opening book recommendation, which makes a lot of sense, given Black is trying to maintain the threat of ...Bc5 and pressure on f2 by preventing Be3. Besides that, 5.Be2 looks playable, but I'll take a deeper look. |
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| Jul-28-08 |
| ughaibu: Here's an example: Euwe vs Spielmann, 1922 |
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Aug-18-08
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| KingG: <whatthefat> The more I look at 4...h5, the better it seems for Black. I'm not too fond of Fritz's 5.Nh3 because of 5...Bc5 6.Be2 Nxe5, where I'm not quite sure what to do, but Black looks a bit too active for my liking. Black has ideas like ...d6, ...Qh4, ...h5-h4-h3, and possibly an eventual 0-0-0. 5.Be2 initially seemed good, but the lines can get a bit crazy. For example 5.Be2 Bc5 6.Bxg4(6.Nh3 just transposes to the line above) 6...hxg4(6...Qh4!? 7.Be2 Qxf2+ might also be a bit dangerous, at least in practice.) 7.Qxg4 d5(other moves are worse i think, but aren't completely harmless) leads to extremely sharp play, even if White may objectively be better. For example, 8.Qxg7 Qh4 9.Nf3 Qxf2+ 10.Kd1 Bf8! 11.Qxh8 Qxg2 12.Re1 Qxf3+ 13.Kc2 Qf2+ 14.Bd2 
click for larger viewAnd now 14...d4 or 14...dxe4 both lead to very complicated positions.
In any case, this isn't really the sort of game I want to give someone who plays the Budapest Gambit. Obviously I haven't really done any deep analysis here, but at first sight, this line looks quite dangerous for White, especially if he isn't well prepared. If you can see a relatively risk free path to an advantage, or at least a game that gives Black less excitement, then please let me now. |
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| Nov-03-08 |
| Alphastar: <whatthefat: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.e4 Nxe5 5.f4 Nec6 is a nice simple way to play against it. White gives back the pawn for a clearly better position, and best of all, not the sort of position Black was hoping to play.> If chess were this simple, 1. e4 would lead to a forced win. Black is at least equal in the position you give as 'clearly better for white'. A simple plan is to play Na6 and Bc5 taking control over the weakened dark squares (this is assuming white has played Be3). Ofcourse white has attacking chances with his pawn duo e4-f4, but black has good play. |
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Mar-05-09
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| whatthefat: <Alphastar: <whatthefat: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 Ng4 4.e4 Nxe5 5.f4 Nec6 is a nice simple way to play against it. White gives back the pawn for a clearly better position, and best of all, not the sort of position Black was hoping to play.> If chess were this simple, 1. e4 would lead to a forced win. Black is at least equal in the position you give as 'clearly better for white'. A simple plan is to play Na6 and Bc5 taking control over the weakened dark squares (this is assuming white has played Be3). Ofcourse white has attacking chances with his pawn duo e4-f4, but black has good play.> This is an interesting system that you propose; I haven't seen it before. But Black cannot be "at least equal". White has built a centre while Black's has lost tempi recapturing the gambited pawn. Following your suggestion 6.Be3 Na6 7.Nf3 (I also looked at 7.Qd5!? directly preventing ...Bc5, but the problem is 7...Bb4+! after which Black plays 8...d6, and again ...Bc5 is playable) 7...Bc5 8.Qd2 
click for larger viewand now a likely line is 8...Bxe3 (8...0-0 9.Nc3 Bxe3 transposes) 9.Qxe3 0-0 10.Nc3 d6 11.Bd3 (11.0-0-0 is an alternative plan) 11...Nc5 12.0-0 Re8 
click for larger viewAnd White with more space and well placed pieces, White retains an advantage (Fritz says +0.3), and can choose between the natural moves 13.Rad1 and 13.Rae1. |
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Mar-05-09
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| whatthefat: <KingG>
After 4...h5 5.Nh3 Bc5 I looked at 6.Bg5!?
when Black has:
(a) 6...Be7 7.f4 Bxg5 [7...d6 8.Nc3 Bxg5 (8...dxe5 9.Qxd8+ Bxd8 10.Bxd8 Kxd8 11.Ng5 Rf8 12.f5  ) 9.Nxg5 Nxe5 ] (b) 6...Bxf2+! 7.Kd2!
<7.Ke2!? leads to unclear positions after 7...f6 8.exf6 [8.Nxf2 Nxf2 (8...fxg5 9.Nxg4 hxg4 ) 9.exf6!? gxf6! and now both 10.Qd4!? and 10.Kxf2 lead to unclear approximately equal positions] 8...gxf6 and now both 9.Nxf2 Nxf2 10.Kxf2 (10.Qd4!?) 10...fxg5 11.Nc3 and 9.Bf4!? lead to approximately equal positions> 7...f6 8.exf6! gxf6 9.Bf4 with a wild position -
click for larger viewThe position is hard to assess. White of course has problems with his king, but on the other hand, Black's deeply buried bishop faces Nxf2 in the near future. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. It of course fails to satisfy your request for <a relatively risk free path to an advantage, or at least a game that gives Black less excitement>. :) Turning to 5.Be2 Bxg4 6.hxg4, I think 6...Qh4? 7.Be2 Qxf2+ 8.Kd2 is the kind of line one has to learn to be happy to face as White against the Budapest - Black is totally busted, and it's just a matter of sidestepping a trap or two. After 8...Nc6 9.Kc3! Black's attack is simply going nowhere. Similarly, after 6...hxg4 7.Qxg4 d5 8.Qxg7, the line you give is certainly only for the brave, but White must be objectively better. I can understand the urge to avoid such lines though, especially since the kind of player who is adopting the Budapest is typically looking for a messy position - dubious or not - in order to outplay the opponent in complications. I think perhaps the best answer in terms of simplicity might be to respond to 7...d5 with 8.Qg3. Now Black has: (a) 8...dxc4 9.Nc3 Qh4 10.Qxh4 Rxh4 11.Nf3 Rh5 12.Nd5 Na6 13.Be3 Bxe3 14.Nxe3 
click for larger viewand White is a clear pawn up in the ending.
(b) 8...dxe4! 9.Nc3 Qh4 10.Nge2 Be6 11.Bg5 Qxg3 12.Nxg3 e3! 13.Bxe3 (13.0-0-0!?) 13...Bxe3 14.fxe3 Bxc4 
click for larger viewSure, White's extra pawn is doubled and isolated, but the fact is, only White can hope to win this ending, and the pressure on Black is not insignificant. White's lead in development affords White an initiative, and after say 15.be Be6 16.Nb5 things are already uncomfortable. |
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Apr-13-09
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| KingG: <whatthefat> After 4...h5 5.Nh3 Bc5 6.Bg5 Bxf2+ 7.Kd2 f6 8.exf6 gxf6 9.Bf4, I think I prefer Black. He has relatively easy development with moves like Nc6, d6, Be6, Bc5, etc. Black also has the e5 and d4 squares for his pieces. Meanwhile, I'm not sure how soon White can really threaten Nxf2 because of the resulting knight fork on f2. At the very least, Black has plenty of time for ...Bc5. As for the lines you suggest after 5.Be2, I agree with your assessments. I also couldn't find any real way for Black to stir up complications, so I think I would be perfectly happy to play this line in a game. As an improvement for Black what about 5...Nc6 ?
If 5...Nc6 6.Nc3 Bc5 7.Bxg4 Qh4 is now more dangerous. Play might then continue 8.Bxd7+ Bxd7 9.g3 Qg4!, when exchanging queens seems to give Black a very comfortable game despite being two pawns down. The immediate 6.Bxg4 also looks bad, so maybe the best is 6.Nf3 Bc5 7.0-0 Ncxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5, and at first glance this doesn't seem too bad for Black. |
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Apr-14-09
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| whatthefat: <KingG>
If 4...h5 5.Be2 Nc6, then I like 6.Nf3, intending to meet 6...Bc5 with 7.0-0. After say 7...Ncxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.Nc3 I think White has a pleasant position. Meanwhile, 6...Ncxe5 will probably transpose. |
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| Jul-17-09 |
| FeArMySkiLLz: This gambit it perfectly sound. But black needs to be very careful against a prepared opponent. But I firmly believe black can make complications, but the bishop pair can be hard to contain for black. I used to play this until I became super addicted to the Albin Counter Gambit (1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5!!). I believe black has better chances here in this gambit than he does in the Budapest. Im not saying the Budapest is bad, its sound. Im just saying against a prepared opponent who knows the common theme to push c5 when blacks pawn is on d6 can achieve a slightly easier game where black will have to defend whites queenside initiative. If you are thinking about taking this up, check out the Albin Counter Gambit, and you dont even have to give white the bishop pair for free (especially in an open position). |
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Jul-18-09
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| notyetagm: Anyone know what line World Champion Viswanathan Anand plays against the <BUDAPEST GAMBIT> in simuls? Only one such game exists in the cg.com database, Anand vs J Garcia Sanchez, 2007, in which Anand plays the <ADLER DEFENSE>. Anand's simul play against the Budapest Gambit was addressed in <New In Chess Yearbook 88>; could someone please tell me what that Yearbook says Anand plays against the Budapest in simuls? Thanks |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 7 OF 7 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
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