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| Apr-06-07 | | atripodi: What's the advantage to playing the Alapin rather than the delayed Alapin with 2.Nf3 and then 3.c3? |
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| Apr-06-07 | | simsim: <atripodi>
i was thinking about playing the delayed alapin, but as <hicetnunc> pointed out above:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6, then
3.c3 is well met by 3...Nf6!
and the pawn on e4 can't advance.
white cannot take the pawn after 4.Le2, since it is indirectly protected because of the queen-check on a4. but
d4 isn't possible anymore. so why play 3. c3 at all?
i think the delayed alapin is only good, if black doesn't play 2...d6. but it cuts down a lot of theory of the open sicilian, if you play the 3.d4 against 2...d6 and 3.c3 against any other move of black. |
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| Apr-06-07 | | simsim: mistake in second paragraph:
black cannot take the pawn after 4.Le2 ... |
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| Apr-06-07 | | atripodi: So why isn't 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 the main line against the Alapin? Sorry, I'm just really unfamiliar with these lines. Thanks for the response <simsim>. |
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| Apr-06-07 | | KingG: I've recently started playing 1.e4 c5 2.c3 e6!? against the Alapin, hoping to transpose into the Advanced French after 3.d4 d5 4.e5, as i prefer playing this position to any of the mainline Alapin lines. I also like the fact that it can basically be played without really needing to know any theory, contrary to the 2...Nf6 line for example. However, so far no one has actually played 4.e5 against me, instead prefering to exchange with 4.exd5 exd5. I think i also saw this recommended in a book on the Alapin. 
click for larger viewBut can White have any real advantage here?
And if this doesn't give any advantage, is there another move that does? |
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| Apr-27-07 | | labqi: i simply dont like alapin .. |
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| Jun-22-07 | | hicetnunc: <KingG> I don't know if white can prove an advantage in this variation, but he bets a sicilian player won't feel very much at home in this Tarrasch French set-up, especially if he has to defend a tedious isolated pawn middlegame :-) |
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| Jun-22-07 | | hicetnunc: <atripodi> After 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d6 white can safely play 3.d4, and if 3...Nf6 he protects his center with 4.Bd3, while after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.c3 Nf6, white doesn't have time for 4.d4 as e4 is hanging :-) |
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| Jun-22-07 | | euripides: <King> a quick look at the opening explorer shows negative statistics for White after either 4...exd5 or 4...Qxd5. I would have thought White might be a little better after 4...exd5 - he is meant to be slightly better in the Tarrasch French with 3...c5, isn't he ? - but I imagine it's really a question of whether one prefers to play with or against the isolated pawn. |
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| Sep-22-07 | | Chigorin: <WannaBe> After 1. e4 c5 2. c3 ♘f6 3. e5 ♘d5 4. d4 cxd4 5. cxd4 e6 6. ♘f3 d6 7. ♗c4 ♘c6, the move 8.♗xd5?! simply gives up the Two Bishops in an open position, not generally a good idea (see: S Rosenthal vs Steinitz, 1873 ; V Makogonov vs Keres, 1939 ; Gligoric vs Larsen, 1973 ). This would be the case even if Black's pawns were really going to remain doubled, but White's e5 pawn will soon be traded for Black's d6 pawn, after which the Black isolated pawn on d5 is not too big a deal (probably not as important as Black having the Bishop Pair). After 8.♗xd5?! Black is at least completely equal, maybe a tiny bit better. |
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| Sep-26-07 | | gambitfan: This opening appeals to me...
My personal statistics show that I succeed quite well with the Morra Gambit... which is similar to the Alapin... |
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| Oct-30-07 | | KingG: <hicetnunc> <I don't know if white can prove an advantage in this variation, but he bets a sicilian player won't feel very much at home in this Tarrasch French set-up, especially if he has to defend a tedious isolated pawn middlegame :-)> Well, i'm not sure how tedious it is. I've recently read in Kasparov's book on the openings revolution of the 70's that he played this line as Black precisely against players he thought wouldn't transpose into the Advanced French, since he enjoyed the active piece play the isolated pawn gives Black. I would tend to agree with this. As i said above, i'm playing this in the hope of getting the Advanced French, but the positions after the exchange on d5 seem fine for Black as well. The only slight drawback of this line seems to be that you can't easily transpose into it from the Morra Gambit move order, contrary to the other Alapin lines. |
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| Dec-05-07 | | tal lover: i played quite well this line in internet blitz, i can say that this is my favorite line against 1...c5, this line is good because you dont have to know much theory (all you need is develop your pieces), and if black dont be careful white can gets a big gap in development. This line goes for an open and tatical game, the bad point is the isolated pawn, in classical games against a good adversary this can a problem, but i dont remember the last time that i lost a blitz game because the isolated pawn. |
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| Jan-27-08 | | Bodia: IMHO this is a good opening against Sicilian for such positional and lazy chess players like me. It can be studied for a day and does not entangle a lot of theory. |
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| Aug-01-08 | | Silverstrike: An interersting loss of mine in a similar opening.
Julius Schwartz (1679) v Connor Woods (1740)
May the 26th 2007
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 Nf6 5.e5 Nd5 6.cxd4 d6 7.exd6 e6 8.Bc4 Nb6 9.Bb3 Bxd6 10.0-0 0-0 11.Nc3 Ne7 12.Bg5 h6 13.Bh4 Bd7 14.Qd3 Qb8 15.Bxe7 Bxe7 16.Bc2 f5 17.Re1 Bf6 18.d5 e5 19.g4 e4 20.Nxe4 Qf4 21.Ng3 Rac8 22.Re2 Rc5 23.gxf5 Bb5 24.Qe3 White Resigns Connor was around 14-15 at the time this game was played, now he's around 16 and rated 2013. |
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| Jan-25-09 | | spirosgr: an interesting game (smith-morra gambit), i lost
[Event "Ikaros Open 2006"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2006.07.17"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Vospernik, A"]
[Black "Lois, S"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B22"]
[WhiteElo "2202"]
[BlackElo "1250"]
1. e4 c5 2. d4 cxd4 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. c3 d5 5. exd5 Qxd5 6. cxd4 Bf5 7. Nc3 Qa5 8.
Qb3 Qc7 9. Nd5 Qb8 10. Bf4 e5 11. Nxe5 Nxd4 12. Rd1 Nc2+ 13. Qxc2 Bxc2 14. Bb5+
Kd8 15. Nxf7+ Kc8 16. Nb6+ axb6 17. Bd7# 1-0
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| Feb-01-09 | | Justawoodpusher: I am just trying to find some good strategies for black in the Alapin. Browsing the won games by black there seem to be two common themes (beside tactics): 1.)
As mentioned already by <Acirce> attacking the isolated queen pawn. 2.)
Secondly there seem to be quite some games were black creates an isolated a and c pawn for white, together with an advanced e pawn. Those are difficult to defend, although in the lines I looked at black seems to be behind in development.
Isolating the pawns can be done by dxe (white recaptures) and by removing for example the white night on c3 with the knight or with a bishop. Any Sicilian experts that can suggest more strategies? |
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| Feb-18-09 | | FiveofSwords: Ok someone was asking why no masters play Nc6 very early. There are a few reasons why black waits a while before playing Nc6 in the alapin. first of all, theres often serious dangers that white pushes c4 and d5, and this problem might force black to exchange the c pawn for the d pawn at a bad time...that is, before white has had to commit his queenside knight, so that it may go to the optimal c3 square. Also, in come lines, if white plays Na3 early, then black might want to keep in reserve the move Na6 against possible attacks on his c7. Playing Nc6 early gives black no additional possibilities that he wouldnt have waiting on it, because if black tries some plan to pressure white's d pawn, he simply get slaughtered via various tactics taking advantage of blacks king in the center or queenside. So 2...Nc6 does nothing but give white extra options, while he still could transpose to a main line if he wishes. |
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| Feb-21-09 | | FiveofSwords: ive always played the alapin, and studied a huge amount of theory on it. In the main lines black has a couple of ways to equalize, but I dont think any other sicilian is different in this respect. It has potential to get very tactical, but white keeps a huge amount of control in the position so the tactics tend to be rather one-sided. Black will have a very, very difficult time playing aggresively versus this opening, and usually gets punished if he tries. Theres a tremendous number of interesting possibilities to deviate from the 'main lines' for both sides so you rarely wind up playing the exact same 1st 10 moves or something. Another nice thing about this is that plenty of harmless looking logical moves black can play could quickly put him in a terrible position if white knows the way. The typical positions you reach tend to feel very similar to a tarrasch french/scadinavian hybrid. |
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| Feb-21-09 | | FiveofSwords: <justawoodpusher> The lines where white has an isolated pawn are, honestly, very bad for black in general. (I assume you speak of the lines where black plays 2 d5, thats where they are most common. theres some positions with isolated d pawn in the Nf6 lines-which i tihnk are more fun and interesting, but the isolated d pawn is never forced in those.) You would be lucky to draw those lines. The isolated d pawn seriously is never weak, ever. if you are trying to induce some pawn structure weakness the best try ive found for black is various ways to give white the isolated duo c and d. But if white gets this weakness and doesnt want to lose the game he wont. Its hard to speak of some general strategy for black because the white position is extremely flexible. I seriously think the only games I ever lost as white in this opening is from either going on some speculative attack that failed, or making some really insane obvious blunder that I would not have done if I thought 3 more seconds before i moved. Ive never seen black get anything interesting positionally. So outplaying the other guy tacticlaly is your best bet imo, and the most tactics happen in the 2. Nf6 lines. It also can get quite sharp and interesting when black plays systems with b6 even though thats unpopular. Just as a warning, because its uncommon, but in this particular opening systems where black plays g6 are both bad for him in general, and slow moving in general. |
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| Feb-21-09 | | FiveofSwords: <kingG> the line you showed, tranposing to a tarrash french, is okay for black. But it is not active for black by any stretch of the imagination. Black will spend the next 60 moves or so trying to draw and he has decent chances to. Thats about it. |
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| Feb-21-09 | | FiveofSwords: <kingg> oh and yes, according to my personal research, adn results in this line, white does have an advantage. If black plays flawlessly then it can gradually go away. But black has to be extremely careful. The fact you see no danger in the position proves just how hard it can be to play flawlessly :) the main ideas for white are to play against the isolated pawn (which rarely comes to anythign but its something), the d4 and c5 squares (and the dark squares in general. its impressive how difficult it is for blakc to find a good spot for his dark square bishop to cover the important dark squares), and also the typical attack on the diagonal to h7 (which happpens because white is going to take that diagonal before black does, and black is going to have to play Ne7 rather than Nf6) |
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| Feb-21-09 | | FiveofSwords: <simsim> by the way the 'delayed' alapin you meanioned is not that bad and Ive done it myself some also. In fact you can get rather interesting positions if you wait a while before playing d4 in general. just because black delays d4 a couple of moves doesnt mean that its never coming. But i recommend you do not try this noncommital slow approach until you really master the direct apprach first, you need to know what sort of positions you are trying to effect a transposition into, or get a better than average version of. |
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| Feb-21-09 | | FiveofSwords: <simsim> By the way, that last comment reminded me that black could also play 2 e5, which ive seen occasionally, and if white plays d4 immediately he doesnt get much- white should play Nf3 and Bc4 first and it becomes an peculiar 2 knights sort of game. So since black does have a way to discourage 3 d4 why should it matter that he could discourage 4 d4 |
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| Feb-21-09 | | FiveofSwords: <Simsim> an interesting idea in that delayed alapin line, just one, there are others: 1 e4 c5 2 nf3 d6 3 c3 Nf6 4 Bc4!?...then if 4...Nxe4 then Qa4+ followed by Bxf7+ and Qxe4 is interesting. if 4...e6 then Qe2 with the idea of 0-0, Rd1, d4 is interesting. |
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