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| Sep-15-09 | | ChessXin: <percyblakeney> I think China A wins fairly.
First, China has two teams because Cuba didn't send its team to play.
Second, sure China B didn't play Tang Zhongyi when it played China A, neither did Hou yifan played that match. China B drew Ukraine, but it also lost to Russia and other teams. If China B really wants to help China A, why wouldn't they loss 0:4 to China A?
Third, as for Russia forfeited a game because of being late, this is FIDE¡¯s rule. It doesn¡¯t matter if you are 1 second late or 1 minute late.
Finally, for China-Vietnam match, according to Chinese media (Sina, Sohu,etc.), during the match, when China A's coaches saw board 4 was losing, they decided to suggest 4 draws to Vietnam team and Vietnam team agreed (This is allowed by the rules ¨C what a strange rule!). At that time, all the other matches were still going on. If Russia or Ukraine win big, China A wouldn't be the winner. They took a risk and the strategy worked. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | percyblakeney: <ChessXin>
Hou Yifan came immediately from her European event without a single rest day and I suppose that was why she couldn't play against China B. Maybe another team would have tried to take advantage of that instead of resting their best player, but as with the Gunina forfeit maybe nothing to question if not for that last round, that looked dubious to me. <Finally, for China-Vietnam match, according to Chinese media (Sina, Sohu,etc.), during the match, when China A's coaches saw board 4 was losing, they decided to suggest 4 draws to Vietnam team and Vietnam team agreed (This is allowed by the rules ¨C what a strange rule!). At that time, all the other matches were still going on. If Russia or Ukraine win big, China A wouldn't be the winner. They took a risk and the strategy worked> In Ukraine's match two games were still being played when China-Vietnam was drawn. Ukraine won both and ended up 1.0 game point behind, so they had no chance of passing China. Russia had three games left and won two, if they had won also the third (a dead drawn endgame) they would still have finished behind China on worse third tiebreak. So China's gold was certain when Vietnam for some reason (that would be very interesting to hear) agreed to draw a match they otherwise seemed to be winning. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | percyblakeney: If the China-Vietnam match was a fair contest from beginning to end the most surprising thing is maybe that Vietnam was playing so well. Their 2265-rated first board player won 1 of her 9 games but had a big advantage with black against her by far strongest opponent Hou Yifan. Vietnam's 2145-rated fourth board wasn't close to winning a game in the whole event before the last round, but there she was winning easily against Huang (6/8 and performing 2500+). |
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| Sep-15-09 | | whiteshark: It was all rigged in advance. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | SetNoEscapeOn: I was just about to write the standard "these allegations are very serious/don't rush to judgment stuff", but then I saw Bich Ngoc Pham vs Huang Qian, 2009
Filthy! |
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| Sep-15-09 | | slomarko: I think allowing a nation to have two teams in a RR is just wrong. If Cuba failed to show up they should have with continued with 7 teams. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | percyblakeney: If foul play was indeed involved it all looks unnecessarily obvious, and the only explanation I can think of to that is that the players aren't used to play long prearranged draws and make them look believable. The games had to continue long enough to make it clear that four draws would be enough, and as soon as that was certain the games ended. I wonder what would have happened if Russia had scored 4-0 against China B though. If the PGN is correct (I do doubt it, but I doubted the other games as well so who knows) Zhao Xue both hung a piece and allowed a simple mate in two, with the opponent "blundering back" both times until they reached a fairly even position. Hou Yifan had a big advantage but avoided the best continuations and ended up much worse instead, and with her last move before the draw offer her opponent halved Shredder’s -1.8 evaluation. Huang was also better initially and went wrong to end up in a totally lost position, when her opponent was ordered to offer draw. It is of course possible to explain the last round differently than that it was prearranged, but I have my doubts about those other explanations... It would definitely not be the first or last time time a match in the final round of a team competition is prearranged, in these cases it is usually a question of four GM draws though. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | dumbgai: I hate to jump to conclusions about match fixing or other illegal behavior, but the final round match between China 1 and Vietnam does look very suspicious to me. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | yalie: I too was about to say "much ado about nothing" till I saw the game. This is filthy, very filthy! <China A's coaches saw board 4 was losing, they decided to suggest 4 draws to Vietnam team and Vietnam team agreed > I wonder why Vietnam agreed. They were clearly winning the match! It should be obvious to patzers that Huang Qian was losing! What does vietnam gain by drawing a match they were winning hands down? It is not like they were worse off on the other boards. At a minimum, this calls for a serios investigation! |
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| Sep-15-09 | | slomarko: on top of that Vietnam was clear last anyway and had absolutely nothing to lose so it's not clear why would they refuse to go for some glory. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | chessmoron: <Percy> For some reason, Olimpbase said that Gunina was forfeited for being 1 minute late:
http://www.olimpbase.org/ |
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| Sep-15-09 | | percyblakeney: <Olimpbase said that Gunina was forfeited for being 1 minute late> Yes, the Russian sources <DCP23> quoted here said she was 2 seconds late but it's not certain that they were right. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <percyblakeney: If foul play was indeed involved it all looks unnecessarily obvious, and the only explanation I can think of to that is that the players aren't used to play long prearranged draws and make them look believable.> The other possibility is: they knew that there would be no penalty for fixing the match, so they simply did not care about making the games look kosher. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <ChessXin>
<This is allowed by the rules ¨C what a strange rule!> Since you made a few inaccurate statements concerning the competitive realities of the final round, I would like to see the official rules before I believe this. In all the team events that I've played in, players were allowed to ask <their own> captain if they could offer or accept a draw (or resign), but that's it. If it actually turns out that you right- that is, if coaches from different teams can negotiate with each other and broker deals that determine the results of the games- then this entire event was a complete joke anyway. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | percyblakeney: <The other possibility is: they knew that there would be no penalty for fixing the match, so they simply did not care about making the games look kosher> Yes, still it would be a bit too much if Thao Nguyen Pham Le vs Zhao Xue, 2009 shows the moves that actually were played in that game. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | SetNoEscapeOn: Yeah, that game is just completely absurd. It's so ridiculous that either the pgn is incorrect, or the two teams agreed before the match that China should win the tournament. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | ChessXin: <SetNoEscapeOn: Since you made a few inaccurate statements concerning the competitive realities of the final round>
I didn't make any statement. I am quoting what Chinese media said. If you can read Chinese, you can read it by yourself. I will believe this is allowed by the rules and China wins fairly until FIDE says not. |
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| Sep-15-09 | | ChessXin: <percyblakeney: I wonder what would have happened if Russia had scored 4-0 against China B though.> I think Russia would be the winner if they won 4:0 since China A and Vietnam had been 2:2 already. That was the risk China A took. In general, I think China chess team always play fairly in international competition. For example, in the first Women Grand Prix, Hou yifan would be the winner if Zhao Xue didn't beat her. Especially, Hou would be the winner if Shen yang (who has nothing to play at that time) didn't hold Hou for a draw in the last round. |
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| Sep-16-09 | | SetNoEscapeOn: <ChessXin>
<I am quoting what Chinese media said. If you can read Chinese, you can read it by yourself.> Why do I need to read it in Chinese myself? Did you translate it inaccurately or something? Who said it does not matter at all. What matters is that the following statement is clearly inaccurate: <If Russia or Ukraine win big, China A wouldn't be the winner. They took a risk and the strategy worked.> In the first place, it was impossible for Ukraine to win the event after the deal was made. Then we have the fact that (according to the Chinese Media), the Chinese team only proposed the draws after they realized that they had a losing position on board 4. If that is true, where does all of this nonsense about taking a "risk" come from? There is nothing risky at all about getting a half point for losing a game. The Chinese team received a gift from their opponents, period; they risked absolutely nothing. Meanwhile, <yalie> posed the most interesting question: what exactly did Vietnam get out of this? |
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| Sep-16-09 | | percyblakeney: <In general, I think China chess team always play fairly in international competition. For example, in the first Women Grand Prix, Hou yifan would be the winner if Zhao Xue didn't beat her. Especially, Hou would be the winner if Shen yang (who has nothing to play at that time) didn't hold Hou for a draw in the last round> Yes, and in team chess these 2-2 draws in last rounds are very common when they lead to one of the teams winning the title, so there was nothing unusual with the outcome in that respect. <I think Russia would be the winner if they won 4:0 since China A and Vietnam had been 2:2 already. That was the risk China A took.> 4-0 was impossible by then since China B's board one just had drawn against Russia, but the interesting thing is what would have happened if Russia had scored four wins against China B. I wonder if China-Vietnam still would have finished 2-2, resulting in China more or less giving away the gold by drawing a much weaker opponent (the normal result would maybe have been 3.5-0.5), or maybe Vietnam would have blundered away a couple of games to lose 1.5-2.5. |
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| Sep-16-09 | | percyblakeney: A earlier discussion on the topic:
37th Chess Olympiad (2006) |
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| Sep-16-09 | | ChessXin: <SetNoEscapeOn>
I am Chinese, so I can read it. What I quote is from Chinese media. <SetNoEscapeOn:In the first place, it was impossible for Ukraine to win the event after the deal was made.>
Why can't Ukraine win? If they beat Arminian 3.5:0.5, they will have 21.5 game points and they will be the winner because they beat China A. <SetNoEscapeOn: If that is true, where does all of this nonsense about taking a "risk" come from> The "risk" factor is obvious. If you can't understand it, I have nothing more to say. <what exactly did Vietnam get out of this?> First, they have nothing to play for. Win or loss, they will be the last (Remember, they replaced the Afracan team in this event) Anyway, the China A didn't the event in a fashion we like. But other teams (Russia, Ukraine, etc) can only blame themselves by wasting so many chances. |
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| Sep-16-09 | | Ladolcevita: Hey,here comes Ladol...
well,methinks also China A won quite embarrassingly this match for clearly their only eventuality of the rearmost game versus Vietname should be a defeat.
And in China,there are as well many(comparatively in proportion to the whole figure)chess fans arraigning such conduct as a disgrace and injustice.
But anyway,the hostly team sometimes does win a bit advantage outside the board.... |
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| Sep-16-09 | | Ladolcevita: nevertheless,its assumable that Vietname were not confident enough to win against China A for they have lost successively most rounds before...and they might need a secure draw to withdraw with a good mood... |
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| Sep-17-09 | | percyblakeney: <And in China,there are as well many(comparatively in proportion to the whole figure)chess fans arraigning such conduct as a disgrace and injustice> Indeed, I looked at the user comments on the Sina reports with the help of Google Translate and most of them reminded of the comments on Topalov/Kramnik from Kramnik/Topalov supporters :-) |
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