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| page 49 of 49; games 1201-1203 of 1,203 |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 9 OF 9 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jan-05-25 | | stone free or die: People are entitled to interpret Carlsen however they like, but let me remind the forum that I'm not the only one who watched the original video and drew the same conclusions. . |
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| Jan-05-25 | | stone free or die: <Atterdag> I found your post (#201) fairly amusing. Though I'll assert that I'm not so noble as Anand. In fact, if I'm noble in any measure, it's in the measure of noble rot. I will have a sniff of single malt in your honor this evening, however! |
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| Jan-06-25 | | Bobby Fiske: Good summary by The New Yorker:
https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sp... |
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Jan-06-25
 | | Atterdag: Thanks for that link, Bobby Fiske. Indeed, it is a fine summary made by Louisa Thomas. I concur with all of it. |
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Jan-06-25
 | | Sally Simpson: ...and back to Carlsen and his implications.
One thing we have to remember is that English is not his first language so perhaps cut him a bit of slack on this one. Having said that, he seems to have mastered the correct meaning of '£$&% You!' |
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| Jan-06-25 | | fabelhaft: <From the article, Carlsen on his fiancee: <it's good to have some distractions in case I don't perform well> Boy, I bet that warmed the cockles of her heart> I do hope you're not also going to complain about him spending his wedding night playing a blitz match against Naroditsky! https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comm... |
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| Jan-06-25 | | fabelhaft: Carlsen was undefeated during the match so he didn't need any unnecessary distractions. |
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| Jan-06-25 | | Bobby Fiske: The World Rapid and Blitz Championships are huge prime time TV-events in Norway.
Our national broadcaster (NRK) has a camera crew, and a sports journalist present inside the venue. The crew is active between the games. The journalist and cameraman shadow Magnus everywhere he goes, to have a comment. When he escapes to the players VIP-lounge, the journalist performs on the spot interview with other players passing by, and with the FIDE crew. The daily transmissions, duration about 7 hours, are available from the online NRK archives. Unfortunately, only from Norwegian IP-addresses. (Maybe there is a hack, if you are clever with computers). Anyway, I tell you this because we got to see *more* footage from the "Jeansgate", that most of the posters in this forum. We saw FIDE Chief Arbiter Alex Holowczak approaching Magnus and taking him into the back office. While waiting outside, Armenian GM Zaven Andriasian exited the same office, wearing some ugly pair of trousers. To our big surprise he told NRK they had been approved by FIDE, because the worn-out look was printed. It was not (technically) denim fabric. Believe it or not. Here is the video clip: https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comm... We saw FIDE Deputy President Vishy Anand entering the office immediately after Magnus. He was also the Chairman of the Appeals Committee. The man with final saying in case of a dispute. What happened behind the closed door, was not filmed, but we know Magnus accepted the $200 fine, and said he could show up with other trousers next day. But Chief Arbiter Alex Holowczak refused to compromise. He insisted on his ruling. Then Magnus turned to Anand for a solution, but Anand disclaimed responsibility, despite being the Chairman of the Appeals Committee. He was the one with formal power to decide the case there and then, but he didn't. What happened next was Magnus leaving the office in anger, and rage quitting the Rapid section. It should be noted that Magnus was not only the defending champion, but also the tournament’s ambassador. He had agreed with FIDE to use his picture and name in the marketing, to attract other participating players. He also was set to play one-on-one games on the rest day against the $5000 paying VIP guests from Wall Street. SUMMARY
FIDE had planned the tournament since June. To attract Wall Street sponsors, they had Magnus in a key role, topping the bill. Then they expel him because his trousers don’t fit the brand new dress code introduced 21st December, only few days before tournament start. The new dress code wasn't even clear, with phrasings like: <Jeans are *generally* not business attire>. Magnus was actually dressed in Wall Street business attire, with blazer, long sleeve shirt and formal leather shoes. His jeans were not worn or ugly. His look was certainly smart enough for Wall Street, as highlighted by The New Yorker article. Shortsighted Chief Arbiter Alex Holowczak put FIDE in the pillory in the eyes of Wall Street. A potentially seven figure decision, according to commentator GM Jacob Aagaard. And Anand stood watching, doing nothing. It was on this background that Magnus got angry, and said something like "are there no FIDE adults present" (popular Norwegian idiom when somebody shy away of their responsibility).
He correctly placed the responsibility on Anand for not solving the dispute there and then. BONUS:
If you still think this is a question about “no players are above the rules” and “Magnus is a primadonna”, why did FIDE approve of Australian GM Kai Jie Soo: https://x.com/davidllada/status/187... Or GM Daniel Naroditsky's sneakers: https://x.com/h_shriya/status/18731... (There are many other examples). |
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Jan-06-25
| | Sally Simpson: This is good. <Bobby Fiske> Could you not have posted earlier. We have have been having a right Ding-Dong about Carlsen's views of Anand and what he meant. We do not know went on behind closed doors Alex Holowczak was probably following the letter of the law. Sounds like he's been caught between a rock and hard place with no outside help. Add that to Magnus's track record when dealing with authority and 2+2=5. You obviously live in Norway Bobby so how about a handful of us jet over to yours so we can watch the NRK film on your computer and then carry on with the debate. |
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Jan-06-25
 | | moronovich: Thanks a lot for the summary <Bobby Fiske> ! |
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Jan-07-25
| | Atterdag: Many thanks to you, Bobby Fiske, for this thorough report of what actually happened. I am deeply disappointed in Anand. He was meant to be an important figure in the new leadership in FIDE, a speaker for the practical players and their viewpoints. In this situation he demonstrates the worst kind of leadership: the laissez-faire-kind, when you passively let people and things happen without using you were given and have taken upon you. If you are so shy of conflict and controverse, you shouldn't engage yourself at all. The so-called dress code for this tournament is in the slap-stick farce genre, and "Chief Arbiter" Holowczak should never be allowed to play any role as arbiter ever again. What an embarrasment for Anand and FIDE. Fortunately, Dvorkovich saw this and saved the chess world for a total scandal. Thanks for mentioning Carlsen's contribution to the launching and promotion of the event. It emphasis further what a lousy treatment the arbiters gave him in New York. |
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Jan-07-25
 | | Check It Out: <Bobby Fiske> Thank you for that enlightening context. Anand should have nipped that problem in the bud, but stood by passively. Ironically, the event received a lot more attention, just not the good kind. |
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Jan-07-25
 | | perfidious: Before all this became clear, there was this post: <<MrMelad: 1. The dress code states “Torn pants or jeans”. As a non native English speaker, it’s unclear to me whether the word “torn” applies to both the pants and the jeans, or just the pants. Is this distinction obvious to native speakers?>The inference I would draw would be that it applied to torn pants or torn jeans, not necessarily that jeans were barred altogether.> Placing a comma after 'torn pants'--had FIDE wished to ban jeans entirely--would have explicitly conveyed the message that jeans were prohibited. By no means was this clear in the above wording, yet it is a grammatical error I often see amongst even native English speakers. |
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| Jan-07-25 | | Teyss: Hi Bobby Fiske,
Thanks for the detailed account which gives more background to the whole story. I have to admit that <stone free or die>'s post makes more sense now (regardless of Geoff's lobbying). Indeed Anand didn't rise to the occasion since he had to authority to do so both as Chairman of the Appeals Committee and FIDE VP, especially since Carlsen was willing to wear "proper" clothing the following day. It wouldn't have been an insult to the arbiter to reverse the decision, that's what the AC is for. Regarding the fact jeans are explicitly mentioned or not, they are indeed in the presentation given to the players: https://worldrapidandblitz2024.fide... (link 'Dress Code presentation', page 6 noted "5" on the slide). But even here there's a loophole that Anand failed to seize: "NOT APPROVED - Jeans are <generally> not considered business attire." Hence he did apply the letter of the law, but missed the opportunity to avoid a useless clash. He probably didn't think Carlsen would forfeit the tournament, yet already banning him for a round is a severe measure for the reigning rapid WC, tournament ambassador, #1 player, etc. Now the tournament and fans have been deprived of his participation until the end. Could he have scored 5/5 in the last rounds to have a playoff with Murzin, or even less if they had been paired against each other? We'll never know. To top it all, this rule is ridiculous since there are different types of jeans (e.g. denim or not) so it's difficult to interpret, and some business casual pants can look worse than decent jeans. FIDE should simplify and allow any untorn pants except tracksuits. Who cares about clothing anyhow within reasonable limits? If we want to promote our noble game for the younger generations, that's not the way to go. BTW this discussion belongs to the 'Rapid' thread but since it started here we might as well finalise it here. |
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Jan-07-25
| | Sally Simpson: <Hi Teyss>
<Geoff's> 'lobbying' was him taking an opposite view as he usually does on everything. He should have chosen the nickname : 'The Devil's Advocate.' Here, thanks to <Bobby's> delay in posting some facts <Geoff> was wrong. (facts just get in the way and have a nasty habit of proving him wrong.) But will he learn from this humiliation. NO! he has more neck than a giraffe and has already spotted another thread where he can firmly plant a flag of defiance and disagreement.
So with grim determination, beating the drum of justice for all and carrying a soap box he sets off once again to correct a wrong doing. |
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| Jan-07-25 | | stone free or die: <<Bobby F> He correctly placed the responsibility on Anand for not solving the dispute there and then.> So, it seems you agree that Carlsen was often referring to Anand in his <Take Take Take> post-jean interview. As for <Wall St. attire>, jeans, though mentioned, didn't make it onto this recommendation list: https://nymag.com/strategist/articl... . |
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| Jan-07-25 | | Teyss: Hi Geoff,
We know you are, er, he is a rebel, we like him all the same, and maybe even more because of this. 'The Devil's Advocate': we now understand the colour of the hot pawn (not here, the other one). Rebel as also proves his personal usage of punctuation and capitalisation. Except <those things> that he is very consistent with now. Impatiently waiting to see the other "thread where he can firmly plant a flag of defiance and disagreement." |
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| Jan-07-25 | | stone free or die: Carlsen said he was acting on principle.
I trust most would agree that Anand felt he too was acting on principle. The question is, whose principle was more valid? Normally, during a tournament, I side with the arbiter's decision, or in this case, the appeal arbiter's decision. They may be wrong, but that's my principle on principles. An arbiter, like a police officer, is on the field, directly in the action. Some allowance is due. Courts can make better decisions, given more time for deliberation and investigation. One question I have, and I don't believe is much discussed, is exactly how arduous, or hard, it would have been for Carlsen to change his trousers? I don't think Nepo had much trouble doing it for his shoes. Or did he? * * * * *
I think, much like Sinquefield, Carlsen could take a constructive role, ultilizing his significant public standing as world's best - if he voiced his objections before becoming entangled in these imbriglios. If he was worried about cheating in chess, make it a major issue before losing a game against Black. If you think jeans are appropriate wear(*), then advocate for dress code changes. (*) Carlsen did talk about his general approval of dress codes, and even offered to dress differently the next day. What exactly was the principle he standing for, given those considerations? .
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| Jan-07-25 | | stone free or die: FWIW - I also think <Bobby> provided a very useful timeline of that day's events. |
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| Jan-09-25 | | Bobby Fiske: The Guardian discusses dress code in chess and other sports: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2... |
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| Jan-09-25 | | stone free or die: <Bobby F> - don't have time to read it all right now, but I'll be back for sure... any article that starts out with a reference to <Wallace and Grommit>'s <Wrong Trousers> caper has my wholehearted approval! . |
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Jan-10-25
| | Atterdag: Great article from the Guardian - thanks again, Bobby Fiske. Journalist Emma John widens the perspective to other sports and concludes, "Equally baffling is the chess authorities’ determination to make their best players look dully interchangeable." which IMO nails FIDE's strange conservative aspiration. Most people would agree - Carlsen is one of them - that players should appear in their better decent clothing, respecting the organizers, their opponents and the image of chess in the public. But that should allow some generous degree of interpretation instead of only authorizing the 20th century conception of a white, well-dressed business-man from western culture. |
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| Jan-10-25 | | Bobby Fiske: Another dress code fcuk-up: GM Zhu Jiner blaming FIDE for her quarterfinal loss. https://www.chess.com/news/view/zhu... |
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Jan-10-25
| | Atterdag: It becomes more and more apparent that the N.Y. event was compromised by a small group of arbiters, who thought their job was to bother the players with indistinct rules interpreted in the most draconical way. We can only hope that these embarrassing incidents will move FIDE away from the autocratic path shown here and move to more flexible rules, managed by reason, balance and proportion. |
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Jan-10-25
| | Check It Out: This looks like poor training of the arbiters and their "special assistants" (lackeys). They are enforcing rules with a black and white perspective. For example, her "boots" which around here are called "uggs" aren't that classy, but sure, they're boots. The arbiter/assistant could issue a warning and indicate preferred boots for *next time* so that slowly the chess competitors get the message that FIDE wants high caliber events to have a certain look. Fines and attempts to have clothing changed in between rounds is a bad move. Trying to change chess dress culture in between blitz rounds is ridiculous. |
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