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Mikhail Tal vs Robert James Fischer
Herceg Novi blitz (1970) (blitz), Herceg Novi MNE, rd 1, Apr-08
Sicilian Defense: Modern Variations (B50)  ·  0-1

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FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
May-15-20  Viking707: Keypusher: Fischer was deranged, and a terrible person, but his accusations about the Russians were true. During Botvinnik's reign the Russians did many things to insure their control of the World Chess, as the testimony of Grandmasters Nicolai Krogius, and Albert Denker show in the attached article. In a one-on-one match with Botvinnik, without Russian "game playing," I believe Fischer would have won. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...
May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: <Viking707: In a one-on-one match with Botvinnik, without Russian "game playing," I believe Fischer would have won.>

Since Botvinnik didn't even manage to win a single WC-match outright as a defending champion against four different Soviet opponents, that may very well be true.
The problem is that Fischer didn't even come close to qualifying to such a match.

May-15-20  RookFile: So this topic is a little ambiguous because there was a proposal for a Botvinnik vs. Fischer match after Botvinnik got defeated by Petrosian. Botvinnik isn't my favorite guy but I believe he would have cheerfully played such a match.
May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  harrylime: <<RookFile: So this topic is a little ambiguous because there was a proposal for a Botvinnik vs. Fischer match after Botvinnik got defeated by Petrosian. Botvinnik isn't my favorite guy but I believe he would have cheerfully played such a match.>>

Coz he knew he'd have the Soviet School of Chess behind his back ..

Fischer v Botvinnik was

Fischer v THE SOVIET UNION

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  harrylime: <<RookFile: It's too bad Tal didn't play 45. Kd6. It's possible that Fischer might have just resigned. But that's blitz, I guess.>>

We don't know the times ..

you're treating this like a classical game.

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  harrylime: Bobby faffed this tournament off in his sleeeeeeeeeeeeep lol lol
May-15-20  Viking707: In a one-on-one match with both players playing without "outside assistance," Fischer's intensity, and creativity would probably have won the day.
May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  harrylime: <<Viking707: In a one-on-one match with both players playing without "outside assistance," Fischer's intensity, and creativity would probably have won the day.>>

lol lol lol

You dont say

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  harrylime: Bobby was a million miles ahead of his time at this point.

No internet. CHECK
No database. CHECK
No engines. CHECK
Bobby Fischer present. CHECK

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: <harrylime: <<RookFile: It's too bad Tal didn't play 45. Kd6. It's possible that Fischer might have just resigned. But that's blitz, I guess.>> We don't know the times ..>

We actually do.
<Each player had five minutes for the whole game, the usual time-limit for blitz before the introduction of electronic clocks.> https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-b...

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: < RookFile: So this topic is a little ambiguous because there was a proposal for a Botvinnik vs. Fischer match after Botvinnik got defeated by Petrosian. Botvinnik isn't my favorite guy but I believe he would have cheerfully played such a match.>

And for the avoidance of doubt, as they say, if that match had been played in 1970, then yeah, Fischer would have crushed Botvinnik.

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  harrylime: That match was played earlier than 1970

Bobby won.

Bobby crushed the Soviet School of Chess.

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: <harrylime: That match was played earlier than 1970 Bobby won.

Bobby crushed the Soviet School of Chess.>

I know you couldn't care less, but here are Fischer's score against the best Soviets prior to 1970:

Viktor Korchnoi tied Robert James Fischer 2 to 2, with 3 draws.

Boris Spassky beat Robert James Fischer 2 to 0, with 2 draws

Robert James Fischer tied Tigran Vartanovich Petrosian 2 to 2, with 9 draws

Robert James Fischer tied Mikhail Botvinnik 0 to 0, with 1 draw

Mikhail Tal beat Robert James Fischer 4 to 2, with 5 draws

Robert James Fischer tied David Bronstein 0 to 0, with 2 draws

Robert James Fischer beat Vasily Smyslov 2 to 1, with 3 draws

Robert James Fischer beat Paul Keres 4 to 3, with 3 draws

Efim Geller beat Robert James Fischer 5 to 2, with 2 draws

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<RookFile> It's too bad Tal didn't play 45. Kd6. It's possible that Fischer might have just resigned.>

I doubt it, even though after 45.Kd6 Stockfish 11 indicates that White has a mate in 20. Depending on his remaining time (there were no increments in those days), Tal could have easily missed the winning moves along the way. He might even have lost as he did in the game or on time. Because, as you said, that's blitz.

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  harrylime: <<Diademas: <harrylime: That match was played earlier than 1970 Bobby won. Bobby crushed the Soviet School of Chess.>

I know you couldn't care less, but here are Fischer's score against the best Soviets prior to 1970:

Viktor Korchnoi tied Robert James Fischer 2 to 2, with 3 draws.

Boris Spassky beat Robert James Fischer 2 to 0, with 2 draws

Robert James Fischer tied Tigran Vartanovich Petrosian 2 to 2, with 9 draws

Robert James Fischer tied Mikhail Botvinnik 0 to 0, with 1 draw

Mikhail Tal beat Robert James Fischer 4 to 2, with 5 draws

Robert James Fischer tied David Bronstein 0 to 0, with 2 draws

Robert James Fischer beat Vasily Smyslov 2 to 1, with 3 draws

Robert James Fischer beat Paul Keres 4 to 3, with 3 draws

Efim Geller beat Robert James Fischer 5 to 2, with 2 draws>>

And ?????? lol lol lol

Bobby beat the corrupt cheatin Commie Soviet School of Chess ... on his own.

May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: You must admit, <Bobby crushed the Soviet School of Chess>, has a better ring to it than <Bobby Fischer mildly inconvenienced the Soviet Chess School>.
May-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  harrylime: Bobby faffed this tournament off as a breeeeeeeeeeeeeeze.... I'm pretty sure he got Tal 2 nil ...
May-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  fredthebear: Game 74 in Russians versus Fischer by Dmitry Plisetsky and Sergey Voronkov
Jun-22-20  Saul Goodman: Keypusher: “Morphy gave a simul against five of the strongest players of his time. Steinitz won every match for 32 years. I don’t think Fischer was any more dominant than Lasker in the late 1890s, Casablanca around 1920, Alekhine around 1930, or Botvinnik in the late 40s. The only reason Kasparov doesn’t show up as dominant as Fischer around 1990 is that he had Karpov to deal with. Even so, he managed to be a clear #1 in chess for 20 straight years. And Carlsen has been #1 continuously for a decade now.“

Fischer beat Larsen 6-0. That’s aS spectacular as Morphy’s simul, although granted it’s hard to know how strong Morphy really was.

Kasparov thinks Tarrasch would have beaten Lasker in the 1890s. Chessmetrics has them 25 points apart in 1895. Fischer was 150 elo points ahead of everyone else.

Chessmetrics has Capablance as 50 points better than Lasker in 1920, and has Alekhine 20 points better than Capablanca in 1930 (and Capablanca actually passed Alekhine again in 1936). Botvinnik got to about 75 above Najdorf in 1948, but there are serious questions about Botvinnik’s results after World War II.

Cerlson has indeed been number 1 for a decade, but he has never been 150 elo points better than everyone else.

I think the reality is that today’s players are the best ever, and that a guy like MVL is better than any of the previous champs before Carlsen. The metric I am looking at, however, is a player’s skill compared to their peers. It’s hard to argue that Fischer wasn’t the farthest above his contemporaries. YMMV

Jun-22-20  Saul Goodman: diademas: “Since Botvinnik didn't even manage to win a single WC-match outright as a defending champion against four different Soviet opponents, that may very well be true. The problem is that Fischer didn't even come close to qualifying to such a match.”

Two points:

1) By the time he lost to Petrosian, Botvinnik was 52 years old, and did not understand modern chess theory. He was only champion through 1963 because of the “Botvinnik Rule” and possibly some behind the scenes subterfuge. He won only two World Championship matches out of the seven He played In post 1948, and at least one of the ties (Bronstein) looks suspiciously like a dive.

2) Young Fischer won the 1962 Stockholm Interzonal by the absurd score of 18.5 out of 23. This would stand as qualification to play a match against Botvinnik or anyone else. Moreover, according to ChessMetrics, Fischer reached number 1 in the world in 1964.

Jun-22-20  Saul Goodman: “<diadimas>
I know you couldn't care less, but here are Fischer's score against the best Soviets prior to 1970:

Is this supposed to be intellectually honest? You include games from when Fischer was 13, and exclude the years when he beat Taimanov 6-0, Petrosian 6.5 -2.5, and Spassky 12.5 - 7.5.

I think it is pretty reasonable to say that Fischer singlehandedly defeated the soviet chess machine, and pretty convincingly at that.

Jun-22-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: < Saul Goodman: “<diadimas> I know you couldn't care less, but here are Fischer's score against the best Soviets prior to 1970: Is this supposed to be intellectually honest?>

Yes.

< You include games from when Fischer was 13, and exclude the years when he beat Taimanov 6-0, Petrosian 6.5 -2.5, and Spassky 12.5 - 7.5.>

Why would I include them if I wanted to refute <Harry>'s claim that Bobby dominated the Russians prior to 1970? <Is this supposed to be intellectually honest?>

<I think it is pretty reasonable to say that Fischer singlehandedly defeated the soviet chess machine, and pretty convincingly at that.> Fischer was definitely the worlds strongest player between 1970 and 1972. No one is denying that.
Please build your straw men with greater care.

Jun-22-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  HeMateMe: the Soviets were mostly over the hill when Fischer played them. After 1968 only Spassky is in his prime and Fischer continually ducked him by walking out of the Candidates or by not participating at all.

after 1972 Karpov is the new soviet in his prime and Fischer turned tail and ran. It's that simple.

Jun-22-20  Saul Goodman: Diademas:

I didn’t realize that <Harry> meant to claim that Bobby dominated the Russians before 1970. If that’s what he meant, he is exaggerating, and I will stand down. That said, from age 23 until his death, Fischer won EVERY tournament or match he competed in, with the exception of the Interzonal he withdrew from while leading, which is sort of like dominating.

Jun-22-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: <Saul Goodman: Diademas: I didn’t realize that <Harry> meant to claim that Bobby dominated the Russians before 1970. If that’s what he meant, he is exaggerating, and I will stand down.>

Welcome to the strange and wonderful world of <harrylime>

The jury is still out if he's a basket case or some kind of reclusive genius. What the world has come to some kind of consensus on, is that his views on Robert James Fischer is, to put it mildly, a bit over the top.

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