1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 g5 5.g3 g4 6.Nh4 Ne7 7.Bg2 Ng6 8.Nxg6 hxg6 9.O-O Rxh2 10.Kxh2 Qh4+ 11.Kg1 Bxg3 12.Rxf7 Kxf7 13.e4 Qh2+ 14.Kf1 Nc6 15.d4 Bd7 16.e5 Kg7 17.Bg5 Rf8+ 18.Bf6+ Kg8 19.c3 Nxe5 20.dxe5 Bb5+ 21.c4 Bxc4+ itsfun resigns
0-1

1. He is better developed
2. He has traded of his f-pawn for blacks d-pawn which gives white an open f-file and long term positional advantage i beleive. 3. Also if the normal response of Nc6 then white can play Bb5 with an improved Ruy Lopez, surely that can't be all that bad. Or white can just reply with e4.

Or black can try e5, but after g5 e4, white calmy plays Qe2! crucial, here the queen guards all the squares and forces the knight back, and after Ng8 (forced) then white has several moves here, but i think the strongest is simply Qb5 winning a sound pawn, i spent the entire afternoon pretty much yesterday playing out some games with a player rated 2000 and another player a former FM (the two strongest players in my area that i know of and play consistently) I ended up winning 3 and drawing 1 losing none with this line! They came to the conclusion that this line is very good for white. I think it's a very interesting line, and might even be a refutation of the Recipe (...2 Bg4) in general.

I like playing the From's as a sort of KGD. Development is easy for white to achieve. I've found that the open f-file and extra central pawn really are quite nice. I do play e4 before Nc3, though, but I'm not sure how much difference this makes.

Tomlinsky: I don't get this line at all...

<f4 e5
fxe5 d6
Nf3 dxe5
Nc3>

click for larger view

<And here i think white has a substantial opening for the following reasons.

1. He is better developed>

Well, white has two knights developed that's for sure. But those two bishops and queen aren't going to be in the action for a few moves while all of blacks opposites can move at will. Black can easily equalise in development.

<2. He has traded of his f-pawn for blacks d-pawn which gives white an open f-file and long term positional advantage i beleive.>

Or it could be a long term weakness. It's impossible to tell at this stage.

<3. Also if the normal response of Nc6 then white can play Bb5 with an improved Ruy Lopez, surely that can't be all that bad. Or white can just reply with e4.>

Well, white would have to do the latter, e4, before the former, Bb5 and on 5.e4 I'd say 5...Bg4 6.Bg5 gives white an inferior Lopez and black has a beautiful diagonal for his DSB to occupy, 5...a6 kills the Lopez idea dead and prepares queen side expansion while 5...Nf6 and white also has no opening advantage whatsoever, let alone a substantial one, as I can see.

Also, e4 Bg4, why would white reply Bg5? To e4 Bg4 white has many options, just one example is the quiet Be2 0-0 d3 and bring out the other bishop with a fine position. White may not have a substantial advantage (probably less than in just taking the From's) however, white has a good game, and he doesn't need to know all the crazy book lines of the From's, or if like i said he just needs a draw...It is most likely slightly inferior to the normal From, but i beleive that white still has a small advantage and can be satisfied with his position.

<Ganstaman> I really don't think it makes much difference at all whether you play Nc3 or e4 first.

Nc6 has already been played. That's why the move numbers start at 5.

f4 e5
fxe5 d6
Nf3 dxe5
e4 and now if Nc6 then Bb5, that was my original idea, i have no idea how you got the idea that i would play Bb5 after Bg4, especialy after i said multiple times that i would not.

Note the difference from an analogous position in the Dutch Defense: 1. d4 f5 2. Bg5 h6 3. Bh4 g5 5. Bg3 f4 and 6. e3 is good due to the mate threat. In the Bird version, white played Nf3 and e3 preventing the Fool's Mate. In the Dutch version, black hasn't had this luxury.

That may be true, most of the players that i play don't take the knight because they do not know the theory well enough, however, that IS the entire idea of the Recipe opening, also, if the bshop retreats to h5, then you can sometimes just chase g4 and win the bishop, for example, bishop g6, f5 and the bishop is trapped, they have to either take the knight or retreat back or else they lose the bishop. Also, while people at our level don't usually take because they don't know the theory rest assured that they do once you get up farther up the ranking chain. For example Bent Larsen quite playing the Bird;s mostly because he complained of all the Russian players playing the recipe line. Danielsen tells about how he showed this to Larsen who said that he will start playing the Bird's again as Larsen thought that this completely changed the entire system. Granted, Larsen was probably pretty old at the time, but he can still to this day play pretty well.

There is link there to his free site (videochess.net). The site is amazing. He plays blitz games online and explains his thought process throughout the game. He has a whole section called the Polar Bear System which is the Leningrad Dutch and reversed Leningrad (what we've been talking about here). Every Bird and Dutch player should check it out. I also think everyone else should as well, but especially P-KB4 players.

I think Danielsen is amazing. He almost has me convinced to play the Leningrad Dutch. Luckily for me, I hardly have to make such a decision since so few of my opponents actually play 1. d4.

I've been trying to pick a book on the dutch to buy, can anyone reccomend some?

See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a moderator.