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| Dec-13-06 | | Themofro: Going back to talking about the From's gambit, there is a line that i have been experimenting with recently and getting excellent results with. it goes as follows:
1. f4 e5
2. fxe5 d6
3. exd6 Bxd6
4. Nf3 g5
5. d4 g4
6. Ng5 f5
7. e4 (regardless of ...6 f5) h6
8. Nh3 (sacrifices the knight) gxh3
9. Qh5+ kf8
10. e5 (forcing the bishop back) be7
11. Bc4 (stronger after be7) Qe8
12. Qxh3
After all that white gets two pawns for the knight, and will almost always win the f pawn as well. Also the black king is very insecure, especially after white castles king side. the passed e-pawn also gives white great endgam chances. Is there something i missed that makes the knight sacrifice unsound? |
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| Dec-13-06 | | Themofro: The From's gambit is very interesting and lively, and i agree with Refutor that ...4 g5 is blacks best play (though not about the exclam). However white has definite counterplay against the From's no matter what. In variations other than ...4 g5 black does not stand nearly as well. For example if black plays ...4 Nf6 (very common) and then follows it up with ...5. Be6 which usually happens, then i find that white has next to no difficuties as compared to most variations in the From. An example (since this was played by me i am sure that there are mistakes in it, lol, though Fritz seems 2 not think that bad of it.)
Taalan Liebermann (me) vs. Fritz 9
2006, my home computer, lol
1.f4 e5
2.fxe5 d6
3.exd6 Bxd6
4.Nf3 nf6
5.e3 be6
6.Nc3 Nbd7 (Ng4 is probably better)
7.Be2 0-0(sizable white advantage)
8.b3 Ne5
9.Bb2 Nxf3
10.Bxf3 (gxf3 is also playable)c6
11.Qe2 Qc7
12.g3 Rfe8
13.0-0-0 Qa5
14.Kb1 Rad8(white is temporarily cramped, but he will soon get major initiative on the kingside)
15.g4 Bb8 (after Bb4 same white move)
16.h4 Nd7
17.g5 bc7
18.Rdg1 Be5
19.h5 Bf5
20.g6 fxg6
21.hxg6 h6 (hxg6 was probably better)
22.Rh5 Rf8
23.Bg4! Bxg4
24.Qxg4 Qc7
25.Rgh1?! (missed Nb5!) Rde8
26.Ne2 Re7?? (horrible, but black is lost anyway ---Fritz)
27.Qc4+ Kh8 (had to play Rff7, but hopelessly lost anyhow)
28.Qh4 Bf6
29.Rxh6!! gxh6
30.Qxh6 Kg8
31.Qh8!! bxh8
32.Rxh8#
All annotations given by Fritz 9
Again, there are definately probably some more errors, but in games where black does not play g5 with the From's he certainly seems inferior to those that he does in. |
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| Jan-17-07 | | Themofro: I have recently posted a mini opening reperetiore for the Bird's Opening including the stonewall, classical, antoshin, Bird/Orangutang, queenside fianchetto, the recipe (an early Bg4), and the From variations. it's incomplete of course, but it's a start and should help people avoid traps as white and learn the best move orders as black (at least in my opinion). A good amount of the information is taken from IM Tim Taylor's new book devoted exclusively to the Bird's Opening. I've posted them at Henry Edward Bird's home page. Hope it helps explain some of the lines and ideas of this very commonly misunderstood (but in my opinion, very strong) opening. Cheers! |
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| Mar-02-07 | | Themofro: Opening of the day!!!!!!!!!!!
...and STILL no kibitzing, so i'll post a game of my own that i played in my last tournament with the Bird's.Me vs. David Wei (i think that was his name, he was chinese.) 1 f4 d5
2 Nf3 Nf6
3 e3 Bf5
4 b3 Nc6 (i love it when black plays Nc6, as that lets white forcibly trade of his bishop for it, then fianchetto queenside taking complete controll of central dark squares.)
5 Bb5! e6?!
6 h3 would have loved to have been able to play Ne5!, because Qd7 is answered with Ba3, winning a pawn and peice, but alas, if now Ne5? then Bg5, so i prepare to eliminate that intermetzo
...5 Be4
7 d3 Maybe i should have played Ne5 now, but didn't like losing g-pawn and kingside castling rights when my queenside underdeveloped.
...7 Bxf3
8 Qxf3 a6
9 Bxc6 (gladly!) bxc6
9 Bb2 Bc5
10 g4! the bayonet thrust! 0-0
11 g5 Nd7
12 Nd2 (preparing to castle queenside and links rooks eventually, also considering the simple Kf2)
...12 Rb8 planning a assualt if i castle queenside
13 h4 Re8
14 h5 planning to sacrifice a pawn on g6 to open the h-file and get the king on the run
...14 e5! i beleive the best move for black, i had missed it completely, and took me a long while to think if i should go along with my original line, i eventually calculated over the board that if g6 then exf5 Qxf5 (treatening mate) Rxe3+ Kd1 and now if black moves a peice other than the e3 rook then i win a peice with d4!, and if he plays Rf7 then gxh7 Kxh7 Bxg7 Kxg7 d4! bishop retreats to wherever, then Rg1+)
15 g6!
16 fxg6 hxg5
17 h6 fex5 (threatening mate by Qf7 Kh8 Rxh6!! gxh6 Qh7#)
18 Nf8 my opponent prevents it...for now
19 Qf7 Kh8
20 Rxh6+!! i play it anyway gxh6
21 g7+ Kh7
22 g8=Q#
Please do feel free to analyze and criticize/praise, or whatever. |
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Mar-02-07
 | | WannaBe: Wei!
Hu?
No, Wei.
Yes, Wei!
Hu? |
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| Mar-02-07 | | chessmoron: High school principal: What's your Name?
me: Wilson
High school principal: Last name.
me: Hu (sounds like 'who')
High school principal: You.
me: Hu
High school principal: You!!
me: My last name is Hu. My god!!!
High school principal: detention. |
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| Mar-02-07 | | Themofro: A day in the white house
Bush: Who's the leader of China now?
Cheney: Hu.
Bush: that's what i asked.
Cheney: that's what i said.
Bush: So who is the leader of China?
Cheney: Hu is the leader of China.
Bush: Forget it, Condi?
(Enter Condi Rice)
Bush: I wanna call up the leader of the U.N. so i can find out who is the leader of China?
Rice: Koffee?
Bush: Yes please now that you mention it.
Rice: mention what?
Bush: coffee, i'll take it black please.
Rice: Koffee is black.
Bush: I know that, now please get me the U.N. leader!
Rice: You want me to call Koffee?
Bush: *sigh* No nevermind.
Rice: Yes sir.
Bush: Yassir? i thought he was the leader of Palestine.
Rice: Yes sir.
Bush: that's what i just said.
Rice: Yes sir.
Bush: (losing temper) All right I'm fed up with all this now, OUT OUT OUT!
Condi & Cheney: Yes sir. |
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| Mar-02-07 | | unsound: <Themofro> You played nice and aggressively, with a nice finish. I like it when black plays Nc6 early too, but it usually leads to positional pressure and an ending for me! I think your scoresheet got messed up (16.g6 fxg6 17.hxg6 etc.). Also, if 6.Ne5 Bg4, what's wrong with 7.Nxg4? And if black had gone in for 16...exf4 17.Qxf4 Rxe3+ 18.Kd1, what if black just defends the rook with 18...Qe7? (Maybe 17.gxf7+ so Qxf4+ is check is better?) But the main thing is you stuck it to black here. |
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| Mar-04-07 | | hscer: From's Gambit Declined 1. f4 e5 2. g4 |
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| Mar-04-07 | | HannibalSchlecter: The Bird is the word!
1. f4 e5
2. fxe5 d6
3. exd6 Bxd6
4. Nf3 g5
5. g3! (Andrew Soltis recommends this line in his book on the Bird's Opening) I get good results with it. I beat off the attack for about 8 more moves or so and I'm up a pawn. |
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| Mar-04-07 | | HannibalSchlecter: <hscer> From's Gambit Declined or its other name "Fool's Mate." |
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| Mar-04-07 | | Themofro: <HannibalSchlecter> Yes thats the line I play too, originally reccomended by Larsen, after g4 Nh4 black has several variations, one is surprisingly on first glance but logical is Ne7, followed by knight g6 to open his h file, this is logical but can be satisfactorly met by white with d4, then trading the knight and giving black his h file, because white then calmly plays Qd3! and th threat of Rxh2 is nullified. Another subvariation of the From Lasker's is Be7 which hits the knight, but then white just retreats the knight to g2 and should have a comfortable, though sharp game. The From's gambit basically attempts to blow white's supposedly "weak" opening off the board, which is illogical, but sometimes works. The Lasker variation especially, it just destroys unprepared opponents, but if white knows what he's doing then he should be just fine. In fact the Lasker variation is becoming less popular now, as Nc6 instead of g5 is taking precedence. This is a critical line, as the e pawn is attacked and must be defended, right? WRONG!! if Nf3? then g5! and black has a very much stronger than normal Lasker. The correct line is after nc6 to play Nc3! Black then can either play d6 and go to the more common or take back the gambited pawn, but then d4! followed by e4 give white a great game, a strong central pawn duo which an open f-file and black missing his e pawn. |
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| Mar-04-07 | | HannibalSchlecter: <Themofro> Yeah in "The Bird-Larsen Attack" Soltis talks about the Qd3! line and the Be7 line which is useful knowledge. I don't recall the Nc6 line, good to know Nc3! is the move. Not sure if the From's is as sound as some are claiming, as I almost always end up keeping the pawn and beating off the attack. |
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| Mar-05-07 | | Themofro: <HannibalSchlecter> I don't think it's all that sound either, however...before i actually learned the lines and became used to it, i just got killed...repeatedly, in the Lasker variation especially. The From murders inexperienced players, however if you know the lines, and can keep a cool head, then it's suspect, the Lasker variation especially. It seems to me that in the Lasker variation, if black doesn't regain his material or get compensation in the first 20 moves, then the best he can hope for is a draw. In IM Tim Taylor's "Bird's Opening" (essential reading for any Bird's player, i'll have to get my hands on the Soltis one too as i hear about it all the time) he basically says that the Lasker variation is going through a depression right now, becoming less and less common, and it's not clear that it will recover. Now that doesn't mean that i don't respect the Lasker, i have great respect for it as it is very sharp and definately still has teeth, but i DO think it is suspect however. |
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| Mar-07-07 | | 2021: Don't fall into this trap in the From's Gambit:
1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 g5 5.e4? g4 6.e5 gxf3 7.exd6 Qh4+ 8.g3 Qe4+ 9.Kf2 Qd4+ 10.Kxf3 Bg4+  |
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| Mar-07-07 | | 2021: Anyways, the From's gambit is bad for black according to NCO (Note: any number in brackets are side variations, brackets like this ( are side variations in the footnotes while side variations in side variations are marked like this { (All from Nco.): 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6(1) 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 g5(2) 5.g3(3) 5.... g4 6.Nh4 Ne7(4) 7.d4(5) 7.... Ng6 8.Nxg6 hxg6 9.Qd3 Nc6(6)  (1) 2.... Nc6 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 g4 5.Ng5 d5 6.exd6 (6. e4 h6 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 unclear position) 6.... Qxd6 (6.... Bxd6) 7.d5 Nce7 8.Qd4 Nf6 9.Nc3! (9.Ne4?! Nxe4 10.Qxh8 g3 11.h3 Nxd5 with compensation Hey-Pillhock) 9.... Nf5 10.Qf4 (2)4.... Nc6 5.d4 Nf6 6.Nc3 Bg4 7.e3 Qe7 8.Bb5! 0-0 9.0-0  ; 4.... Bg4 5.e3 (5.g3 h5 with copmensation) 5.... Nc3 6.d4 (3)5.d4 g4 6.Ne5 (6.Ng5?! f5!) 6.... Bxe5 7.dxe5 Qxd1+ 8.Kxd1 Nc6 9.Nc3 Be6= (4)6.... Nc6!? 7.c3!? (7.Nc3; 7.Bg2 Be7 8.0-0 Bxh4 9.gxh4 Qxh4 unclear positon) 7.... Ne7 8.d4 Ng6 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Qd3-6.... Ne7 (5)7.Nc3 Ng6 8.Nxg6 hxg6 9.Ne4 Be5 10.e3 f5 11.Nf2 Qd5 12.e4 fxe4 13.Bg2 Bf5 14.d3 Adgestein-Cifuentes (6)10.c3 Bf5 (10.... Qc7 11.Bg2 Bd7 12.Nd2 0-0-0 13.Ne4 Hey-Karseev) 11.e4 Qe7 12.Bg2 0-0-0 13.Be3! (13.0-0 Ne5 14.Qe3 Bd7 unclear position) 13.... Rxh2? 14.Rxh2 Bxg3+ 15.Ke2 Bxh2 16.exf5  (Note: The footnote for 1.... e5 and 2.fxe5 are not included because both of them refer to other lines that are not in the From's gambit. This means what should have been footnote 3 became footnote 1 because two of them are not in the line presented here.) |
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| Mar-08-07 | | Themofro: <2021> Good stuff.
Also, i am getting really tired of hearing people say, hmm...doesn't look good for white, look at that winning percentage. First: it's slanted because very few of the best players play it as white, but played black way more often. Also, winning percentages in general don't mean much, case in point, one of the most prestigious defenses for black against d4 is the King's Indian Defense, or the KID, but here are the winning percentages for the KID: White wins 38.9%
Black wins 22.4%
Draws 38.7%
hmm... doesn't look good for black at all, overall percentages for black substantially lower than the Bird's (about 6% lower once the draws are factored in), but it's the Bird's thats considered unsound, not the KID. |
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| Mar-09-07 | | 2021: <Themofro> Thank's for the comment. I don't trust the From's gmabit at all, and I think players that get good result's with this opening are just playing players who don't know how to reply to the From's gambit. Beside, it's an uncommon opening uncommon openings are not studied a lot. The only good about the From's gambit is that white has many traps he can fall into, thus making hard for white to find the most accurate line. But overall, I don't trust the From's gambit. P.S. This is my opinion, if you disagree, that's okay. |
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| Mar-09-07 | | Themofro: <2021: white has many traps he can fall into, thus making hard for white to find the most accurate line. But overall, I don't trust the From's gambit.> I completely agree, because of all the traps and stuff i respect the From's, but it's not what i'd play if i was black and playing against the Bird's. |
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| Mar-09-07 | | ganstaman: I always wondered about the From's gambit. Is the extra pawn really worth having to work so hard to avoid all those traps or otherwise inaccurate moves? I'd rather not have the pawn and not have to deal with all that pressure. An extra pawn isn't even decisive all the time. It's not that I don't like defending -- in general I love it. But this always looked too risky to me. Maybe I should actually study the lines more and give it a shot. |
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| Mar-10-07 | | Themofro: <ganstaman> It's still unknown whether or not in general the From's Gambit is worth it, but i personally like taking the pawn and the challenge. I'm not afraid of the lasker variation in the least (win about 60%, draw bout 30 %, only lose about 10% against it, however it's so sharp that it should still be respected) but i think the craziness of the full Mestrel variation leads to a position so complex that no one can figure out who is better, but it's probably somewhere around equal. I personally think it's equal but that's just me.
But overall though, the schleter variation (...2 Nc6 instead of d6) can be considered refuteted by NC3!. the Lasker is fading from view though still played occasionally. The Mestrel is still for now (and probably for a long time) unanalysable, but most likely more or less equal. The Lasker variation is what you need to study the most to be comfortable against it, but once you've studied it for a while, you shouldn't have that much of a problem maintaining at least equaity, usually a small to sizable edge, hence it's fading away. |
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| Mar-10-07 | | Themofro: An example of how to play against the From Lasker is the following game. A must win game for both players with IM Timothy Taylor as white and GM Julio Becarra as black. T Taylor vs J Becerra-Rivero, 2005 |
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| Mar-10-07 | | HannibalSchlecter: That is a nice game. I like the way Taylor skillfully coordinated both defense and attack. Black usually plays 11 Bf5 instead of what Rivero played 11 Bd7. When black plays 11. Bf5 White should reply with 12 e4! By the way if you're interested in the Soltis book on the Bird or the Bird-Larsen Attack, I believe they're out of print but I checked on ebay and they're selling them. I expect amazon would have them too |
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| Mar-10-07 | | HannibalSchlecter: <Themofro> Also, your argument on winning percentages is the refutation! Nicely done. From what I have heard the only criticism the Bird's opening gets from stronger players is not that it's unsound but allows black to equalize too easily. I would agree with that, but at club level those truths often don't apply. |
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| Mar-10-07 | | Themofro: <HannibalSchlecter: the only criticism the Bird's opening gets from stronger players is not that it's unsound but allows black to equalize too easily.> That's not that far from the truth although the way i'd put it is the Bird's Opening is probably not white's best oppurtunity for advantage, though theres nothing wrong with it. One of the biggest advantages for the Bird's is it forces the opponent onto your turf, in other words, whether the opening itself is best oppurtunity for advantage, your almost definately going to know the opening better than your opponent, which is a sizable advantage in itself. Plus if you like unbalanced games, or the Dutch defense etc. then it is an obviuos choice. If you know the opening, then in my opinion it's not worse than any other opening, and you have the added advantage of usually knowing it better than your opponent. |
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Later Kibitzing> |
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Kibitzing
