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| Jan-30-05 | | drukenknight: ANother day another Philidor trap. This to me, is the most common problem black runs into on the Q side when he overburdens the Q. The move order here is probably not likely, but it is basic set up of the Q/R/N that I am trying to illustrate. This problem occurs and re-occurs w/ amateurs, often the effect is disaster although I couldnt remember a good example: 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. c3 Bg4
4. Qb3 Bxf3
5. Qxb7 Nd7
6. gxf3 Nc5
7. Bb5+ Nd7
8. Bxd7+ Kxd7
9. Qb5+
This one is not a disaster for black but white still has a distinct advantage. |
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| Feb-01-05 | | drukenknight: In that last line, 6...Nd8 is probably a better move. Something to keep in mind this ...Nd8 move keeps recurring as a way to help save the position, here is another example: 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. c3 Nc6
4. Bc4 h6
5. Qb3 Qe7
6. Bd5 Nd8
7. d4 Bg4
8. Nbd2 c6 |
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| Feb-01-05 | | Helloween: Strange, but Tamaz Gelashvili plays this opening and he is one of the most hyper-aggressive players out there. See:
L Mkrtchian vs T Gelashvili, 2001
and
N Shavtvaladze vs T Gelashvili, 2001
The guy knows nothing but the Kingside attack! |
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| Feb-20-05 | | csmath: Well, here is my game against a rather strong computer (dual Athlon MP) who chosed to play this opening. I have chosen to play 5.f3 which seems to me opens the game for both sides. He accepted the challenge. The game went rather violent and he resigned after only 23 moves (he was lost in 15 moves and there would be a mate in 27) which is extremely rare against a computer in a standard game. ICC 25 30
Internet Chess Club
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. d4 exd4
4. Nxd4 Nf6
5. f3 d5
6. e5 Nfd7
7. f4 Nb6
8. Nc3 Bb4
9. Qh5 c5
10. Bb5+ Kf8
11. Nf3 d4
12. Ng5 Qe7
13. O-O dxc3
14. f5 N6d7?!
15. f6 gxf6
16. exf6 Nxf6
17. Qh6+ Kg8
18. Bc4 Nbd7
19. Bxf7+ Qxf7
20. Nxf7 Kxf7
21. Bg5 Rf8
22. Rae1 Kg8
23. Bxf6 Rxf6
Black resigns
1-0 |
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| Mar-10-05 | | drukenknight: another Ponziani meets Philidors, I have often tried to get my K to d1 in response to blacks Q getting out on the K side, and hide my K the pawn formation b2-c3-d2 but it almost never works. In this example it seems to work. Again, the Ponz. has lots of transpositional aspects, so you might want to think about what other patterns might find this idea useful. 1 e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. c3 h6
4. Bc4 Qf6
5. Na3 c6
6. h3 Be7
7. Qb3 Qg6
8. Kd1 Qxe4?
9 Bxf7+ Kf8
10 Bh5 d5
11 Re1 Qf5
12 Bg4 and it just gets bad, 1-0. |
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| Mar-11-05 | | drukenknight: Of course in the above line, black messed this up early, if he takes the g pawn it is crazy and the crap pc has trouble giving an evaluation, it keeps fluctuating. A sign that this line could benefit from more analysis. This is very rough idea, but it looks like it goes something like: 8...Qxg2
9. Bxf7+ Kf8
10. Bh5 Qxh1+
11. Ke2 d5
12. exd5 Qxh3
13. dxc6 Qxh5
14. cxb7 Bxb7
15. Qxb7 e4
not sure the evaluation. |
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| Mar-18-05 | | chess man: It is sound but it is just too passive for my taste. |
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| Mar-20-05 | | ongyj: <Helloween> Thanks for the links. I found that in both games he actually transposed from Pirc into Philador's defence when White plays 3.Nc3. Interesting and enlightening! <csmath> I don't wish to begin a series of personality clash here but your Kitbitz are somewhat self-contradicting and maybe even dictating. First you mentioned that Philador's defence is a retarded opening played mostly by patzers that's afraid to face Ruy Lopez. Then you mentioned that you find it annoying when you play against it. Shouldn't the ideal defence be something that annoys your opponent instead of giving him/her a comfortable time? I congratulate your superior techniques that win your games, but perhaps it's too harsh to ban this opening for players below 2000. How unfair it would be should this clause be a ruling. The lower rated player is assumed to be technically inferior in the first place, and now the rulings are against their favour dealing them a unnecessary double blow. LOL (now that's a joke on my side but I hope you get my point :) ) In additional, in your latter post you mentioned that you yourself actually uses Philador's defence!? You mentioned that it seems to work well against hyperaggresive White opponents. In the same post you also revealed that you play the aggresive and fashionable(verbs from me) Sicilian Najdorf Defence, but you would sometimes use the Philador against those opponents. Now isn't that saying you're afraid to play the Najdorf, your personal standard repetoire? Then it should have been okay for those Patzers, whose rating may or may not be below 2000, to avoid the Ruy Lopez which may or may not, be their forte. Playing with standard time control means it's a quality game. Hmm... well that I dare not say should I be one of the players LOL (that's joke #2 from me alright :) )I agree that the quality of a game is assumed to be better in a standard time control than other tighter time controls but it also depends on factors like the players' strength and most importantly, their performance. It would be great if you can put up that game here for all to see and I suppose it would then be more appropriate for the users online to judge the quality of the game. The game that you did put up was won convincingly by White. Black was doomed in the opening after 5...d5?! and White punished it very precisely. <drukenknight> Your idea of transposition with Ponziani is indeed interesting and enlightening as well. However your examples are somewhat all biased in White's favour. You mentioned doubtful moves like 3...h6?!, 3...Bg4?! and your continuations for 3...Nc6 are all solid moves on White's side but not so for Black. This makes your idea unconvincing. I think the validation of this idea requires better efforts from Black beginning with 3...Nf6!? I suppose it would be really worthy if White can make something out of it. EOD(end of day) for me tonight. Hope to receive constructive replies thanks. |
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| Apr-07-05 | | Franz the Stampede: guys you have to help me somehow!
I keep SUCKING on Yahoo against Philidor's Defense! I can't help it!
I always arrive in this position
<http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...;
as white then black plays c5...
what do you suggest to continue?
thanks! |
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| Apr-07-05 | | AgentRgent: <Franz the Stampede> Plan Nf3, Bc4, Qd3 and Bf4. e.g.
[White "Ritzerfeld,Wim"]
[Black "Carl,Michael"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. Nc3 exd4 5. Nxd4 c5 6. Nf3 Bg4 7.
Bc4 Be7 8. Qd3 Nc6 9. Bf4 Nh5 10. Be3 Bxf3 11. gxf3 O-O 12. f4 Nb4 13.
Qe2 g6 14. O-O-O Qc7 15. f5 Bf6 16. fxg6 hxg6 17. Rhg1 Kh7 18. Nb5 Qe7
19. Nxd6 b6 20. c3 Nc6 21. f4 Rad8 22. e5 Bxe5 23. fxe5 Nxe5 24. Nf5
Rxd1+ 25. Rxd1 Qf6 26. Nd6 Rd8 27. Ne4 Rxd1+ 28. Kxd1 Qd8+ 29. Kc2 Qc7
30. Bd5 Qd8 31. c4 Qd7 32. Qxh5+ gxh5 33. Nf6+ Kg6 34. Nxd7 Nxd7 35. Bf4
f5 36. Kd3 Nf6 37. Bb8 Nxd5 38. cxd5 b5 39. Bxa7 c4+ 40. Kc3 Kf6 41.
Bd4+ Ke7 42. Be5 1-0 |
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| Apr-08-05 | | ongyj: <Franz the Stampede> Relax:) When you keep running into trouble from the same position again and again you should stop at it and give it a better look. Try to understand the position. In that position White looks better as Black's d6 pawn is a vulnerable target. Notice it has only 2 defenders, the d8 Queen and the f8 Bishop. White does not need to rush to punish this weakness. Notice how the awkward/backward d6 pawn blocks the scope of the f8 Bishop. Look at White's position. The Bishops are free to roam and the Knights are already developed. What more can you ask for?
After which comes the part on planning. Remember that you are on advantage, be it your choice to make it decisive quickly, or strangle your opponent to death(the 'bad bishop' is could be the losing factor for Black). Now White must react for the Knight is under attack. White can either retreat the knight, or play 6.Bb5+ demanding a response from Black instead. Before making the choice, think abit further. For instance, you want to 0-0 or 0-0-0, what are the differences, the square the Knight lands has huge influence on the follow-ups. In fact the moves suggested by <AgentRgent>, in particular Bc4, Qd3 and Bf4 seems very typical but powerful and effective.
If non of these helps, perhaps you're playing an opponent who'se much stronger and perhaps you'll improve alot, especially on gameplay, studying your losses. |
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| Apr-08-05 | | dragon40: Hello all..
I think that if I was an 1...e5 type player, I'd choose the Philidor and use the counter attack variation 3...f5.
It just looks very aggressive and White does have to be more than a little careful when facing it, at least according to the games I have seen...Black can get one heck of an attack going if White treats the opening lightly or carelessly?!
Trouble is at this time, so many players with White will choose a King's Gambit, Vienna, 4 Knights or Bishop's Opening, so the prospect of playing an open game with 1...e5 to me at least, loses much if not all of its appeal.
For now, I am sticking to the Caro-Kann and the occasional Najdorf 6...e6 Sicilian :) |
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| Apr-08-05 | | drukenknight: yes it's not a bad idea, but consider this: it really depends on what white is doing doesn't it? And that often depends on the timing of a certain move. If you read my posts above, I try to play c3 and I have found not much trouble from ...f5. But I noticed that Steinitz started to play ...f6 in response to the Ponziani and when I see ...f6 it usually is a challenge. But if I know he's going to play ...f6 I will probably try to play something different and then he will try to outsmart me and then maybe play ...f5! You have to note how lines can transpose into different lines and then try to form a judgment as to which lines you prefer... |
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| Apr-08-05 | | drukenknight: ONgyi: it is not fair to say that my ideas are "unconvincing" because I give examples that may be unsound... You will note that I am often trying to give examples to show people where other people will mess up. This is not only useful for blitz players but I think useful for overall opening study as well as for personal theories of chess. Plus it is fun to beat someone in like 30 sec. due to some trap and he looks up and says: "are you a master?" "Well, I did play Ponomoriov at Lone Pine..." "gee..." Furthermore, you will see that I try to pt. out better ways for black to play and so I am not trying to hide anything. I believe chess is a draw with best play, so if I pt. out all sound moves for black and white, then I guess we will be here all day and there will be no mistakes in the game and it goes on forever. You can create lines like that in a computer all day if that is what you want to do. I am trying to pt. out mistakes because I think it is more productive. PLus you admit my ideas are "interesting." Well what else can anyone produce but interesting moves!! THink about it. Can Steinitz or Bobby Fischer actually show you a forced win? No. They can only demonstrate how to win after the game is lost. Oh and they also can you show you interesting moves....That is all anybody can do unless the other guy messes up.... THat is chess. As you yourself no doubt know.
Moreover, you will see that in my last two ideas on 1/30 and 5/10 I give better moves for black to play. Hopefully this saves the game for black. So I do give sound lines after all for black, dont I? Or if you dont think so then go ahead and show me where I'm wrong... |
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| Apr-08-05 | | dragon40: <drukenknight> I understand what you are saying and you are right. Those violent lines in the Petrov after 3...f5 can be controlled by White and again, if he knows how to deal with them, than as with any other opening, Black will pay for his inaccuracies soon enough.
I do appreciate that you try and give lesser lines and inferior lines to show how NOT to play agasinst specific openings, this can be better than just giving winning lines and ideas; you show what to look out for and how to avoid making these mistakes!
Good job!:) |
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| Apr-08-05 | | drukenknight: oh thanks, I have probably another dozen or so tricks in this ponziani/philidor from playing a few months ago, so I will have to pull out the notes again... |
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| Apr-08-05 | | drukenknight: dragon: Tired of seeing white win all these philidor's? here's one where I feel like I'm getting a chicken bone of pawns down my throat. 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. c3 Bg4
4. Qb3 b6
5. Bc4 Qe7
6. Bd5 c6
7. d4 Bxf3
8. gxf3 b5
9. dxe5 dxe5
10. a4 Nf6
11. axb5 cxd5
12. exd5 |
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| Apr-08-05 | | Assassinater: < I keep SUCKING on Yahoo against Philidor's Defense! I can't help it! I always arrive in this position
<http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...; as white then black plays c5...
what do you suggest to continue?
thanks! >
Your opponent has a weakness, the backwards pawn on d6. Just like a in a Sicilian, hammer down on it. Another thing to notice is the hole on d5. Wouldn't it be just great to put a knight on there in the near future? Of course, that's just how I would play it. Stuff like Nf3, Bf4/Bg5, Bc4, and start going after the d5 square in earnest. |
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Apr-09-05
 | | An Englishman: Good Evening: Helloween, Georg Marco, the self-proclaimed "World's Greatest Chess Master," because he weighed over 300 pounds, had a unique treatment of the Philidor which consisted on nothing but a King side attack. Here is one example: Yates vs G Marco, 1921
I have a funny feeling this wouldn't work nowadays. |
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| Apr-09-05 | | drukenknight: Here's one that looks Scary but maybe is okay after all... 1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. c3 Bg4
4. Qb3 b6
5. Bc4 Qe7
6. d4 exd4
7. Nxd4 Qxe4+
8. Be3 Qg6
9. O-O c5
10. Bb5+ Nd7
11. Qd5 Rc8
12. Qb7 Ne7 |
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| Apr-09-05 | | ongyj: <drukenknight> I apologise if you may find the term 'unconvincing' to be offensive. Perhaps it'll be good for me to point out what I really meant.
The truth is, I like your ideas. 3.c3 is at least worth an !? in my opinion. In fact I'm really apologetic to put a '?!' on 3...Bg4, as upon more examples you provide and rethinking about it in a clearer state of mind I find that it's a reasonable move. Now that you've made your point about showing mistakes I appreciate your contributions here as <dragon40> also did.
For me I like 3.c3 so much that I want more analysis/attention to it. That's why I'm quite upset that as a major contributor to this idea, you didn't give 'convincing' lines. 3...Nc6 and 3...Bg4 are reasonable moves that you mentioned but in the prior posts there contains moves which could be improved on Black's side, at least that's what I think, at that point of time.
My thinking, even at this point of time, is that White obviously wanted to go for eventual d4, so 3...Nc6 and/or 3...Bg4 doesn't seem to be discouraging it so much. Of course these moves you mentioned are perfectly playable, just that I didn't want White to have an easy time at all, or so I try:) I thought Black's good potential deterrence is 3...Nf6!? , attacking the e4 pawn. White can then continue with 4.d3(but this Blocks the scope of White's light Bishop, or a gambit attempt with 4.d4... That would be what I wish to see...
To end, I actually believe that chess is NOT a draw at perfect play, at least, not a dead draw. LOL:) |
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| Apr-09-05 | | drukenknight: Ongyi: that line I gave on Dec. 4 has a d4 in it for you. I dont usually play d4 very quickly, it either comes later when blacks K is still in the center or maybe it never comes and the d pawn keeps my K from being checked. But you keep saying that you're not satisfied, okay what moves do you want to play? 1 e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. c3 f5?!
it's up to you, what line do you want to study? |
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| Apr-09-05 | | ongyj: I thought I've said it very clear already. I'll look into 3.c3 Nf6 ... |
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| Apr-09-05 | | dragon40: [Annotator "Fritz 8 (45s)"]
[PlyCount "24"]
C41: ♙hilidor Defence
1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6 3.
c3 Bg4 <(3... Nf6 4. Be2 Nbd7 5.
Qc2 Be7 6. O-O c6 7. d4 O-O 8. Nbd2 Qc7 9. Re1 Re8 10. a4 b6 11. dxe5 Nxe5 12.Nc4 Nxc4 13. Bxc4 d5 14. exd5 Nxd5 15. Bg5 Be6 16. Bxe7 Qxe7 17. Bxd5 cxd5 18.Re3 ♘ovak,I-Franzen,J/Trencianske Teplice 1974/MCD/1-0 (46))>
4. Qb3 N <(4.Bb5+ c6 5. Ba4 Nf6 6. h3 Bh5 7. d4 Nbd7 8. O-O Be7 9. Re1 O-O 10. Nbd2 h6 11.Nf1 Nh7 12. Ng3 Bg6 13. Bb3 Kh8 14. Be3 Ng5 15. Bc2 Nxf3+ 16. Qxf3 Bg5 17. Rad1 d5 18. Nf5 dxe4 Grosar,V-Mikuz,S/♘ova Gorica 2002/C♗M 86 ext/0-1 (60))>
4...b6
5. Bc4 <(5. d4 Bxf3 6. gxf3 Qf6  )>
5... Qe7 <(5... Qf6 6. Be2 )>
6. d4 exd4
<(6... c6 7. d5  )>
7. Nxd4 Qxe4+
8. Be3 Qg6? (8... Nf6 $142 9. Bxf7+ Ke7 )>
9. O-O ?? <gives the opponent counterplay> <(9. Nb5 Kd7 10. Bxf7 Qd3
)>
9... c5 ? <(9... c6 10. Nb5 Na6 11. Re1 )>
10. Bb5+ ?? <not a good decision, because now the opponent is right back in the game> <(10.Bd5 ! would have given White a clear advantage cxd4 11. Bxd4 )>
10...Nd7 <♗lack should quickly conclude development.> |
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| Apr-09-05 | | dragon40: 11. Qd5 <(11. Ne2 Bxe2 12.Bxe2 Ngf6 )>
11... Rc8 <(11... Rd8 12. Ne2 Qc2 13. Na3 Qxb2 14. Qe4+ Be6 15.
Qa4 )>
12. Qb7 Ne7 <(12... Ne7 13. Nc6 Rxc6 14. Bxc6 Nxc6 15. Qxc6 Be7 )> <(
12... Rd8 !?is a viable option} 13. Ne2 Bxe2 14. Bxe2 Ngf6 =)> Had to do this is 2 parts just wanted to show u guys what Fritz thought at a moderate thinking level..maybe spur more ideas?! |
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