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| May-16-18 | | Olavi: It is. The German ö as in 'König' is the same, although the Germans hold their breath between the 'ö' and the 'n', there tends to be some sort of a dropped 'h'; we dont. |
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| May-16-18 | | Olavi: <The problem is that the US pronunciation of "Burke" is completely different from the UK pronunciation.> In fact I wasn't aware of this. What is the difference? |
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| May-16-18 | | Olavi: Well now I know, sort of. The UK pronunciation is the one I was referring to. |
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| May-16-18 | | ChessHigherCat: <Olavi> Thanks for the explanation of the vowel. I knew that Hungarian and Finnish were related because when I visited an American friend in Budapest I was absolutely amazed at how foreign the words seemed. I was especially amazed by the plural ending "f"! I said, where did this language come from, Atlantis? He said that Finnish was related as another "Uralic-Altaic" language but that there were only four words that were recognizably similar (one of them was the word "fish", I believe). About the British pronunciation of Burke, my uncle told me a joke about the "Law of Conservation of R's": The British never pronounce the R when they should, so to compensate they add an R where they shouldn't (like "idea-R"). That way the number of R's in the universe remains constant (like the law of conservation of mass and energy in thermodynamics). Anyway, the British pronounce Burke like the sound French people make when they think something's disgusting: Beuk! Or maybe like a burp/belch at Oktoberfest after eating 3 Bratwurst and drinking 5 pints of Leff. Americans always pronounce the "R" so it sounds like Burke. |
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May-17-18
 | | Annie K.: OK, I could try to make an audio... I'm pretty sure I know how to pronounce Böök, although I'm rather less sure about the first name(s). ;s But I could send in an audio to put up, and then our native members could correct me. ;) Unless somebody would just like to make an audio themselves? It's not difficult, actually. :) If you wanna leave it to me, please remind me if the Finns also have the custom of putting the last (family) name first, or is that just us Hungarians. ;s |
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May-17-18
| | Annie K.: <ChessHigherCat: <I was especially amazed by the plural ending "f"!>> Eh? Last I checked,the Hungarian plural ending was vowel+k (the vowel depends on the last vowel of the singular word). :) |
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| May-17-18 | | soldal:
The name is pronounced É-raw EY-nar Bök. The Rs are hard. The funny thing is that Eero is Finnish, Einar Norwegian, and Böök Swedish. Here's Einar Tambarskjelve, who lived a millennium ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einar... Last name last. |
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| May-17-18 | | WorstPlayerEver: I have to say -as a Dutchman- I can follow most Americans easily, but when an Englishman talks it depends on were they are coming from. That said, I can't follow what Norm of Cheers says anyhow. |
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| May-17-18 | | ChessHigherCat: <Annie K.: Eh? Last I checked,the Hungarian plural ending was vowel+k (the vowel depends on the last vowel of the singular word).> That would make sense, it was over 20 years ago so either my friend my made a mistake (which would surprise me) or I "misremembered" (which wouldn't). Anyway, K makes more sense because f is a sibilant like s so it would not be so astounding. K is really weird. What about the 4 words that are recognizably identical or at least cognates in Finnish and Hungarian? |
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| May-17-18 | | ChessHigherCat: I googled Finnish-Hungarian cognates and found that they're virtually no words that are the same but I was (sort of) right about "fish": Then comes the biggest group where the similarity is only clear to linguists as systematic consonant changes have to be taken into consideration. Words like: kala-hal (fish) pää-fő/fej (head), kuu-hold/hó (moon) etc. https://www.quora.com/What-words-do... |
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| May-17-18 | | Olavi: <Annie K.: If you wanna leave it to me, please remind me if the Finns also have the custom of putting the last (family) name first, or is that just us Hungarians. ;s> Family name last. |
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| May-17-18 | | ChessHigherCat: <Annie K.> I think you should put "Family name, first name" in a list of audios, so that people can look them up according to the normal (Western) conventions. Speaking of which, where are the names here?:
http://www.chessgames.com/audio/
Is that the list of recordings you mentioned? You should add a column to the left with the names in alphabetical order. You should also ask CG to add a link on the startpage because that link is extremely hard to find. |
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May-17-18
| | Annie K.: A long, long time ago, on a message board far, far away... I once had a long discussion with Finnish speakers about the exact subject of the similarity between Finnish and Hungarian. :) (Which is why I believe I may still know how to pronounce Finnish vowels.) BTW, here are a few similar words we found:
English - Finnish - Hungarian
fish - kala - hal
water - vesi - víz
hand - käsi - kéz
head - pää - fej
eye - silmä - szem
In fact we later concluded (IIRC) that Finnish has a tendency to tack on an 'i' to the ends of words, and even more similarities may be found if you remember to allow for that. Thanks, <soldal> and <Olavi>, very helpful. :) I'll try to get around to making an audio soon - I may have to download some programs first, I got a new computer a while ago, and I don't think I've set up my recording and editing programs on it yet. |
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May-17-18
| | Annie K.: <ChessHigherCat> yes, that's the link I meant - and I agree it's not very user friendly. :/ Another way to find audios is the Player Directory - players with audios on their pages have a special audio icon by their names. But I'll let you in on a little secret - there is also another list page, and that's a lot more useful... but Daniel's been telling me (for some years now) not to publicize it too much, because it's not quite up to site standards to be used as an official site resource page. On the other hand, it's not supposed to be strictly top secret either, so if I just sortof accidentally paste a link here, I suppose that would be ok... ;p http://www.chessgames.com/perl/pron... |
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| May-17-18 | | ChessHigherCat: <Annie K.: That's great, thanks. I never knew it was SmysLOV! About the critics, criticism can be extremely useful and it's even essential (I noticed you corrected Etienne Bacrot, BTW) but here's a good way to make it constructive: Say at the top: All criticisms are welcome, just record the correct pronunciation by clicking here: .... Then if it's really an improvement you can update the list later. A criticism without providing the correct pronunciation is worse than useless. |
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May-20-18
| | Annie K.: <CHC> Sounds like a brilliant feature, unfortunately it would be very likely to be abused. At this time I can't think of any direct upload features to the site (except game submissions, but that's just text...) - all other uploads are arranged by emailing them to Daniel (chess@chessgames.com). That could work by way of instruction though, too. ;) One of these d̶a̶y̶s̶ years, there will be a feature named Sandbox, which will allow more independent uploading - when that is introduced, an audio upload feature may be a part of it. :) |
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| May-20-18 | | ChessHigherCat: <AnnieK> I thought of the possibility of some vandals leaving a lot of audio turds in your Sandbox by "correcting" all the pronunciations to "Foo Kyoo". Maybe there are too many security problems involved with interactive features, but my idea (I don't know whether this is feasible or not) is that clicking on the "correct" link would display an MP3 player icon (which most people know how to use, and you could give some instructions below), so they could just click on "record" and say the correct pronunciation (hopefully not Foo Kyoo) and it would go into temporary storage (is that the same thing as an upload?). You would then have to confirm the recordings to update the list, so nobody could modify the site directly. At least the integrated MP3 player wouldn't allow users to upload contaminated files, since they could only make audio recordings using the player on the screen. |
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May-20-18
| | Annie K.: <CHC> Yep, it's a nice idea. I'll definitely take it up with Daniel - possibly not very soon though; he's really busy with several other big projects these days - but I'll direct him this way when I get a chance. :) |
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May-20-18
| | Annie K.: Oh, and please just call me Annie - I look for that string more often than for AnnieK. ;) |
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| May-20-18 | | ChessHigherCat: <Annie> I just thought I'd suggest it because you said "if you guys don't want to do it yourselves", but in fact nobody knows how, including me (otherwise I could probably help with 5 or 6 languages myself). My new problem is figuring how to create a mute button I can use to shut up these idiots in the street screaming about some soccer game :-) |
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May-20-18
| | Annie K.: Heh... well, I use some more advanced editing equipment, but the simplest way to record an audio is to use your smartphone if you have one - they all have a recording app by default I believe, usually with a microphone icon. If you want it cleaned up (cut down start and end static, optimize volume), and/or converted to mp3, if that's not your phone's output file type (it probably isn't) before sending to Daniel for publishing, you can send it to me instead, and I'll do that part and send it on. :) I would love to get more native (or at least good speaker) help with the pronunciations! =) To get my email, you can send me a private message somewhere... for example, on QueenAlice or FICS if you have accounts there. These sites send notifications when you get a new message. I'm not sure YouTube would be good for even that much, because its notifications land in the spam folder too often. |
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| May-20-18 | | ChessHigherCat: Hi <Annie>, I really like your project and I've learned a lot from it, but I'm not good at complicated procedures (sounds a bit like Mission Impossible, I'm still expecting your message to self-destruct). I know how to make MP3 recordings, of course, but if I actually had to send the recordings with a cover letter to somebody I don't know I don't think I'd ever do it because I have an incredibly intense job with very tight deadlines. Now, if I just had to click a button on the screen, that's another story. I understand you have to talk to Daniel, though, and that involves entering the den of lions, of course :-) |
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May-20-18
| | Annie K.: Daniel couldn't possibly be a nicer person, srsly. :D |
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| May-21-18 | | ChessHigherCat: <Annie> I confess I don't even know who Daniel is. I think I've seen the name Daniel Fri(ed)man(n) mentioned in connection with the puns. I even read the Book of Daniel in Aramaic but I didn't catch his e-mail address :D |
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May-21-18
| | Annie K.: Heheheh... :D
OK, that would be Daniel Freeman, AKA User: chessgames.com, the owner and admin of this site. :D |
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