|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 26 OF 29 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Apr-07-15
 | | AylerKupp: <<MagnusVerMagnus> lmao then I am a Canadian GM and will advertise my site here as a such cause obviously it does not matter which Federation grants me that Title.> Being awarded a grandmaster title is not a matter of opinion. Does the Canadian Chess Federation award grandmaster titles? (I honestly don't know). If so, when did the Canadian Chess Federation award you the, presumably, Grandmaster of Canada title? If it did, then I will be the first to agree that you can legitimately say that you are a grandmaster (lower case g). If it didn't ... well, you know what people who claim something that they are not are called. I would also suggest that not all grandmaster titles should be considered equal in prestige and that should be taken into account, just like degrees from some universities are considered more prestigious than degrees from other universities. But the holders of bachelor degrees from both prestigious and not-so-prestigious universities can both legitimately claim to have a college degree. The title Grandmaster of Russia and, prior to that, Grandmaster of the Soviet Union goes back a long way and considering the playing strength needed to be awarded such a title it should be considered more prestigious than, say, the title of Grandmaster of South Sudan, and a substantial achievement. Not to denigrate South Sudan, it just happens to be the newest sovereign country (2011) and so it's history is not a long one. |
|
Apr-07-15
 | | Annie K.: For those actually interested in understanding the situation, it might also be worth pointing out that Natalia's website is primarily Russian, and the English version is just a translation of it. So for a Russian Grandmaster, who actually lives in Russia, and whose website is largely written for a Russian audience, it's entirely natural to refer to herself on this website by her national title, which is of course recognized and respected by her primary readership. PS - if the Canadian player pool were full of the world's top rated players, as the Russian one is, then the Canadian GM title would be a respectable one too. But it's really a waste of perfectly good pixels to respond to that part. :p Good luck in China, Natalia, I'm not sure I'd want to be going there just now in your place, after what you did to their players! ;s |
|
| Apr-07-15 | | Kinghunt: I do not doubt that "Grandmaster of Russia" is a title, or that WGM Pogonina has earned it. However, from a quick internet search, I am unable to find any information about the title whatsoever. Can anyone help me out with a link to a semi-official page about it? |
|
| Apr-07-15 | | rogge: <Annie K.: For those actually interested in understanding the situation, it might also be worth pointing out that Natalia's website is primarily Russian, and the English version is just a translation of it.> Really? At least 85 % of her readers' comments are in English (I found roughly 60 comments written the last year or so), so I'd say it's primarily an international site. Or maybe Russians don't post comments. |
|
Apr-07-15
 | | OhioChessFan: I understand the situation. I guess there's not much to be done about claiming to be a Grandmaster when one isn't. |
|
Apr-07-15
| | OhioChessFan: And I understand if one was appealing to a Russian audience, one would certainly be more apt to identify oneself with the moniker "Grandmaster of Russia". Just saying. |
|
| Apr-07-15 | | Kinghunt: In fact, of the few cases where I can find "Grandmaster of Russia" listed as a title anywhere on the internet, the vast majority (~70%) are references to WGM Pogonina, and the rest are non-chess (either Go, ie, http://rusgo.org/history/, or Checkers, ie, http://wc64.org/en/chempionat/match...). Do independent references to this title exist anywhere on the internet? |
|
Apr-07-15
| | AylerKupp: Here is a link that provides some information about the Grandmaster of the Soviet Union title which, by extension, can probably be applied to the Grandmaster of Russia or Grandmaster of the Russian Federation titles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandm...(chess). Of course, this being Wikipedia, I don't know whether it qualifies as a "semi-official" page. I didn't come across any other pages in English discussing either the Grandmaster of the Soviet Union or Grandmaster of Russia/Russian Federation titles, although there were other pages in Russian which supposedly address it. I say "supposedly" because (1) I don't speak Russian so I can't confirm it and (2) this was a Google search. I stand by my suggestion that to avoid ambiguity and possible misunderstandings that the terminology "FIDE Grandmaster" title be used if that is what one is referring to and "grandmaster" in the generic sense whenever any grandmaster title is being discussed. |
|
| Apr-07-15 | | zanzibar: <AK> your link just sends me to the GM disambiguation page on wiki. Did you intend to send us over to the Russian page on GM's? https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9... The English translation is here:
http://translate.google.com/transla... The converted award:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe... Given to chess, checkers, and Th ( = Go) players. |
|
| Apr-07-15 | | twinlark: Russian Wikipedia has some additional comment:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9... Using google translate, the short article discusses the title of Soviet Grandmaster and its checkered origins. But then it seems that the title of <Grandmaster of Russia> was established under Article 22 of the Federal Law "On Physical Culture and Sports in the Russian Federation." This title is bestowed upon chess players as well as players of checkers and Go. The applicable law was brought into effect, or modified, in 2007 and can be found at http://www.rg.ru/2007/12/08/sport-d... (again in Russian). Applying another google translate, linked here: http://translate.google.com.au/tran..., the first part of Article 22 states that the the Russian Federation establishes the following sports titles: 1) Master of Sports of Russia International Class;
2) Master of Sports of Russia;
3) Russian grandmaster.
I understand Ukraine has a similar system, and have noticed that most eastern European countries, especially the ex-Soviet countries, have retained the title of Master of Sport, sometimes with chess players being awarded the basically honorary title. As far as I can tell, it is a kind of "best and fairest" type of honorary award where a person produces excellent results and is of good character, thereby bringing credit to their country. I haven't been able to find further criteria, or a list of sportspeople who have had any of the above awards, but undoubtedly both exist. Whether or not this is more prestigious than the FIDE GM award is debateable and probably beside the point as they are different awards. One is an honorary national award, as I say, something like a "Best and Fairest" recognition, while the other, the FIDE GM award is based on cold hard statistical achievements. The national award seems more or less a reward for a mix of qualitative and quantitative achievements while the other is essentially a quantitative achievement. In any case, it deserves an entry into <Natalia Pogonina>'s bio, duly footnoted. If anyone can find more information about criteria and public listings of the award, it would assist the biographical process. |
|
| Apr-07-15 | | twinlark: <zanzibar>
You beat me to it! |
|
| Apr-08-15 | | Kinghunt: Thanks <twinlark>! That actually helps my understanding of the title a lot. As a title awarded by the government on a subjective basis, it is perhaps best compared to the Indian Arjuna Award (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjun...). Prestigious, for sure, but never intended as a indication of strength or specified achievements. |
|
| Apr-08-15 | | twinlark: <Kinghunt>
Anyone receiving a national GM or Master of Sports title for chess or any other sport in Russia or Ukraine would be very strong in the game for which they receive the honor. It would therefore be some indication of quite considerable strength, just not a precise one because other factors are likely also taken into consideration. |
|
| Apr-08-15 | | Kinghunt: <twinlark> Yes, that is a more precise statement of what I meant. You do not get it without being an very strong player, but some extremely strong players do not have it because it is awarded on the basis of more than just strength. |
|
Apr-08-15
| | AylerKupp: <zanzibar> Sorry about that. I was on a different page when I copied its URL so I don't know why it happened. But, no, I definitely did not intend to send you to the Russian page on GMs since, as I indicated, I don't know Russian. Now this is really weird. I typically compose my posts in Word before I post them so that I can run the spell checker. I verified that the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandm...(chess), when posted in Word, got you to the proper page. But when I posted this post in my forum and clicked on the link again, it sent me to the page that you were sent to (a different page)! But the page doesn't really say all that much; it's just a brief overview of the title of Grandmaster and it's mostly about the FIDE Grandmaster title, but it does indicate the chronological evolution of the title and the regulations for awarding it. If you are still interested, Google "Grandmaster of Soviet Union title" and the first link displayed, to the page titled "Grandmaster (chess) – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" will get you there. |
|
| Apr-09-15 | | zanzibar: <AK> No problem from my end. Weird how things like that can happen. Also, funny that <shams> was synchéd up too. Anyways, while I'm here - let's try another link - Pogonina's favorite chess books (this one is mostly in English): http://pogonina.com/index.php?optio... (scroll down pass all the Natalia's) |
|
| Apr-09-15 | | Shams: <zanzibar> <Also, funny that <shams> was synchéd up too.> Wait, what? I'm confused. |
|
| Apr-09-15 | | cro777: In Russian sports classification system the title of Russian grandmaster in chess, checkers and go is equivalent to the title of Master of Sports of Russia International Class (equates to international champion). It is the highest sports title in Russia. The requirement is the obligatory participation of the athlete in official international competitions, in which he played for the national team of Russia, as well as in the case of an establishment or repetition of the European or the world record. |
|
Apr-09-15
| | AylerKupp: On a somewhat related subject, here is a link: http://tastings.com/scout_wine.lass... ;-) |
|
| Apr-09-15 | | zanzibar: <Shams> I clearly should have written <twinlark>. Apologies to both. |
|
| Apr-09-15 | | twinlark: <cro777>
Thanks for the extra info.
<as well as in the case of an establishment or repetition of the European or the world record.> Does this mean, for example, the team winning Olympic or European gold? Also, would you be able to link to some source material concerning the criteria your mentioned in your post? |
|
| Apr-09-15 | | cro777: <twinlark: Does this mean, for example, the team winning Olympic or European gold?> Yes, this includes Olympic (and Paralympic) medals. The title is awarded for outstanding achievements in international competitions. Requirements and norms are established by "Regulations on Unified Sports Classification System of Russia" (Положение о Единой всероссийской спортивной классификации). https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9... |
|
| Apr-10-15 | | twinlark: <cro777>
Thanks again. That manual is a doozy to work out. |
|
| Apr-10-15 | | MagnusVerMagnus: All I have to say is SHENNIGANS EVERYONE here that knows and has played chess at a high level hopefully understands what Grandmaster GM means...many have worked their @ss off for that Title and it means something that many (I myself included) could not achieve with half a lifetime of perseverance. I only bring this up to applaud those who sacrificed so much to achieve that lofty title. Thank you |
|
Apr-10-15
| | AylerKupp: <<MagnusVerMagnus> EVERYONE here that knows and has played chess at a high level hopefully understands what Grandmaster GM means> Obviously you don't. Is that your way of saying that those that have those "other" grandmaster titles did not work their @ss off for those titles and that they don't mean anything? I think that it takes an immense amount of time and effort plus talent and sacrifice to reach the pinnacle in any endeavor, and ALL that reach that level should be applauded, regardless of what they are called. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 26 OF 29 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
