Er.. ok I could have done that in the time I wrote this...>>

Heh. I rarely bother with the accents myself. When I do, it's because the spelling <is> the subject of the discussion - never in casual conversation, so there. :p

Leko! ;)

(There are <two> accents missing there, just to clarify, in case anybody didn't know...)

<Anyways I have some other Hungarian names and also some Czech names with lots of the accents that I'd like to know how to say- properly.>

Bring'em on. :) Although for the Czech names, <Switch> here, <Mostly Average Joe>, and <Honza> would probably be more qualified to assist, as far as I can tell. Hey, <Honza> might be extra helpful this time of year, ackshly... ;p

<Because like I was saying all I need to do is have the name onscreen when Richard says it the first time and there's no confusion.>

Yup, that's what I was thinking too. You are now in the position to finally set straight all the dreadful mispronunciations of the names of better-deserving chess players in history! ;)

<Pardon interruption of the discussion- I'll contact you tomorrow with a heinously overdue email on this and other topics.>

http://www.chess.com/article/view/p...

Would you mind taking a look at it, and give your opinion on the accuracy of the Hungarian names in particular?

Tartakower (tart-a-KO-Wer)

There's no "w" sound in Polish or Russian is there?

So (tart-a-KO-Ver) and (VIN-ah-ver), surely?

Maybe Bill assumes we will read the "w" as "v" automatically, since that's hardly obscure information.

That means the end of Najdorf's full name:

Mieczysław

Would be "swahv"

As opposed to "slav"?

Frankly, I find this difficult to believe. I think we'll require a bona fide Pole for assistance on this one.

On the other spelling- on Tomasz Lissowski's "Chess Vistula" site- which is in Polish-

It's spelled "Winawer" and "Tartakower".

Also, on the net, you can actually see the spelling "Tartacover" in some cases.

So case closed, surely, at least for <TartaCOVER>.

However, I've just remembered that we do have an active Polish speaker at this site- I believe <fusilli> may well be Polish.

I shall consult him.

Also, a sent an EMU yesterday- hope it got through.

So Najdorf's name is in fact mispronounced on my video.

Also- I guess this is why "Swabia" is spelled the way it is?

"Slavia"

So Slavs are really "swavs" or even "swabs" in Poland.

Are English sailors called "swabbies" because originally all European sailors were Polish?

You see- you wrote <Thanks dakgootje> up there.

That's what I'd like for me too. Please use my name.

However, I know you are not mean spirited. I did get angry there, but not for long. The entirety of my FICS profile still reads "I am friends with Mr. Owls" and I'm sticking with that.

At any rate- two things:

1. Thanks for the list of Polish members you put there

2. Can you tell me about that Frogbert "undeleting" saga? I missed that entirely and I really can't imagine what events would lead the administrators to actually "undelete" a post- let alone a large number of them.

I'm very curious about this- please let me know what happened there? Be as brief as you'd like.

Sorry, I apologize for that. I have to say though that I'm mildly surprised you of all people would be angry about that. I mean, considering you've used <my> real username a grand total of 3 times, two of which were purely copy-paste. ;-)

<frogbert undeletion saga> That was many years ago, and I don't remember all the details. IIRC the basics are that <frogbert> was really, really pissed at the usual user suspects (mostly <achieve>), and maybe even more so at the admins. (I can understand that, actually - he has some very valid reasons for his deep dislike of our admins. Then, the same is true for the other way round... Whatever else you do, always be polite to the admins, until there's absolutely no alternative.) Anyhow, he decided to retire from CG.com and remove any useful contributions he'd made as a revenge of sorts...

<frogbert: I once tried to remove <everything valuable> I had contributed to the site, including every useful post I had made on the Carlsen page. What I typically did <not> try to remove, was useless fights and quarrels.>

A quick Search Kibitzing shows the exact date for main events of the Undeletion Saga was Apr-23-08 - this was his on-the-spot commentary:

<frogbert: i'm not interested in contributing content and services to a site that shows this lack of respect for its (paying) users. until today, kibitzers have been capable of retracting their own postings, and hence i wanted to remove all quality content (and most of the rest, too) i've supplied over the last 9 months. when i was almost finished, however, my actions were reversed - even on the two pages where i have explicit rights to delete material at will. undoing of deletions of <my postings> on <my player pages> was another example of less than perfect administration of this site. >

I can't make the accent over the "e" on my keyboard so you'll have to manually pronounce the "ay" sound there.

Thanks for that trademark concise and to the point history as well.

Fascinating- I did not know that. What a strange, strange, saga.

<Jess: <Mieczys³aw>>

That should be a cat's name, Shirley? ;s

Yup, nandu arrived, and I'll probably send an ostrich your way later today or tomorrow. :)

<Switch> thanks for the history - I hadn't followed that particular event.

<Jess: <Unfortunate that our right to delete old posts was a casualty.>>

Well, IMO unlimited editing/deleting is usually not a good idea on long-standing community boards. Revisionism happens, and can be very confusing and frustrating to later readers trying to find out "what really happened".

LOL! I've often wondered why I found Meow-chiswav Najdorf so cute.

Yep I understand the "extended delete" problem- but in that case, I think it's obvious this site requires more administrators- from somewhere.

I hope they find some.

I was hoping you might Czech the pronunciations of these gentlemen- they are starring in the next movie:

Jan Foltys

Ludek Pachmann

Cenek Kottnauer

Karel Opocensky

Jaromir Florian

also

Gedeon Barcza

Jaromir Florian >

You seriously ought to try <Honza> here. He's our resident expert on Czech (being Czech) while I'm just someone random who knows some things but not nearly enough. I'll try though. <<<< Don't trust me 100% here !!!!!!! >>>>

I'm not sure if you already have the movie up somewhere for me to listen to or if it's still just being planned or what, but in any case it's probably simpler if I just try to explain what I think they should be like. That's not an easy task though - explaining foreign pronunciations to English speakers is undiluted hell (see Euwe...)

Jan Foltys = YON FAWL-tiss

The first name is pronounced almost but not exactly like the english word "yon" (the vowel sound is very slightly different - more precisely it would be the short version of the long "aan" sound from Wijk aan Zee). I'm using the "aw" in "FAWL" to represent a short vowel sound similar to the vowel sound in "law" or (even more so) the first part of the "oh" sound that opens words like "opens". "aw" will always stand for this sound in what follows.

Luděk Pachman = LOO-deck POKH-mon

The "oo" sound is shorter than that in the actual English word "loo", like the vowel sound in "book" or "look". I think the "ě" in Luděk actually changes the preceding "d" sound somewhat, but I can't help you with that. If you really want THAT little detail right, ask <Honza> and hope he has infinite patience. Both "o"s in POKH-mon refer to the same sound as the vowel in "Jan". "Kh" is the sound familiar from "Alekhine"; I presume you can do that one already, but just in case, it's NOT a "k" sound of any kind, it's more like a special "h" that gives you a throatache if you do it wrong.

Čeněk Kottnauer = CHEH-nyeck CAWT-now-ehr

The "eh" in both "CHEH" and "ehr" represents the short vowel sound from "end". It's amazing how English speakers so often get THAT one wrong. The "aw" in "CAWT" is again the short vowel from Foltys. "now" really is pretty much exactly the English word.

Karel Opočenský = CAH-rell AW-paw-CHEN-skee

The "ah" in "CAH" is a short vowel, actually the Jan sound yet again, but I used "ah" here because "CO" might have been very misleading. "aw" sounds are the same as before. The "ee" in "skee" is a long vowel sound, indeed the same as in the English word "skeet".

Jaromír Florián = YAH-raw-meer FLAW-rey-aan

The "ah" in "YAH" is again the Jan sound, and the "aw" in "raw" and "FLAW" is again the short vowel from Foltys. The "ee" in "meer" refers to the same sound as it did in "skee"; don't try any of the funny things you usually get in English when "e" and "r" are consecutive. The "ey" in "rey" is pronounced like the "i" in "nipple" or the vowel sound from the second syllable of "Foltys." Finally, the "aan" would more usually be "ahn" but I changed that to 1) disambiguate this long vowel from the shorter version of same in "YAH" and 2) because <achieve> has already taught you how to pronounce "aan" :-))

You were so descriptive with the sound explanations that I think I can direct my narrator to approximate the correct sounds- certainly better than I'd otherwise be able to.

No, we haven't laid down any vocal tracks yet because I'm still writing the script- it's a documentary on <Rossilimo>.

lol I'm so dumb I can't even tell a Czech name from a Hungarian name.

<Jess> ok, those two - remember that if you want their names exactly as they would be used in Hungarian, then the last names should come first, ackshly - but I'll leave that up to you. :)

Gedeon Barcza - BAR-tza GEH-deh-on

...and I'm copy-pasting <Switch> on this: ;)

<The "eh" [...] represents the short vowel sound from "end".>

The a-s are the sound from "car", and the o is the sound from "or", not the one in "on". This is always true for said letters in Hungarian.

Lajos Steiner - SHTINE-ehr LAH-yosh

Actually, this is a bit of a challenge, since "Steiner" is not really a Hungarian name - so I'm guessing the vowels would be pronounced the German way, but I wrote it in phonetical English. I hope that's clear. ;p