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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 23 OF 849 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Nov-05-06 | | twinlark: With respect to an immediate to <yanez>'s immediate 26.Nxd5 (rather than the typo 26.Nxe5), <Noctiferus> provided extensive engine analysis on p46 (3 Nov) on <Random Visitor>'s forum which essential discredits 26...cxd5 27.Raf1...Re4. Similarly <RookFile> finds that 26.Nxd5 cxd5 27.Raf1 Qe7 is also good for White: <<RookFile>: Well, I looked at some endgames, and confirmed Dionyseus's judgement that they are winning for white.A position of interest arises after
23. d4 Nb4 24. Qd2 Nb4 25. Rf3 Nd5 26. Nxd5 cxd5 27. Raf1 Qe7 28. fxg6 fxg7 29. b4 Bg7 30. b5 axb5 31. Qb4 Qe2 
click for larger viewBlack tries to fight back with his own queenside pawns. 32. Qxd6 Qc4 33. Qd7 and now:
A) 33......b4 34. Rf7 Bxd4+ 35. Bxd4 Qxd4+ 36. Kh1 and now: A1) 36..... Qe5 37. Rxh7 Rf8 38. Rhf7 Rad8 39. Qb7 Rb8 40. a6! Rxf7 41. Qxf7+ Kh8 42. a7 Ra8 43. Qb7 Qe8 44. Qxb4 Kg7 45. Re1 Qf8 46. Re7+ Kg8 47. Qe1 1-0 A2) 36.....b3 37. Qh3 h5 38. Qg3 Re6 39. Qg5 Qe3 40. Qxd5 Rae8 41. R7f3 Qe5 42. Qxb3 h4 43. Rf6 Qe4 44. h3 Kg7 45. Rf7+ Kg8 46. a6 Qe3 47. Qb2 Qe5 48. Qf2 1-0 B) 33.... Bxd4+ 34. Bxd4! Qxd4+ 35. Kh1 Qe5 36. Qxb5 d4 37. Qc4+ Kh8 38. h3 Rec8 39. Qa2 Rc7 40. Qf2 Qc5 41. Rf6 Rca7 42. Qe2 Random Visitor's computer gives +0.44 which is really good for white under his system> |
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| Nov-05-06 | | Scarecrow: <twinlark> There are some problems with the diagram you posted. I wish we had that position :) But... Black's a6 and d6 pawns are missing, while White has an extra pawn on e6. |
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| Nov-05-06 | | twinlark: <scarecrow>
Damn, that's what double vision does for you at 11:55pm. Is there an easier way of copying a FEN than to transcribe the whole position from scratch. I'll try it again: <Hesam7> posted the following on p46 of <RV>'s forum (4 Nov): 23. d4 Nd3 24. Qd2 Nb4 25. Rf3 Nd5 26. Raf1 Qe7 27. Nxd5 cxd5 28. Qc3 
click for larger view28... Rac8 29. Qd3 Ra8 30. b4 Qe4 31. b5 Qxd3 32. Rxd3 axb5 33. Rb3 Re2 34. Rfb1 Bh6 35. Rxb5 Be3 36. Kh1 Bf4 37. Rxd5 Kg7 38. g3 Bd2 39. f6 Kxf6 40. Rxd6 Kg7 (eval: +0.35 @ depth 21 by Fruit 2.1) Thanks scarecrow. |
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| Nov-05-06 | | twinlark: <Ohio> Thanks for the permission...could I impose on you to delete my earlier offending message, the one with the stuffed up FEN? |
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Nov-05-06
 | | OhioChessFan: <William Wallekers> says: I know, but why would black play Nd5 (the move you refer to) and weaken his pawn structure voluntarily? |
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Nov-05-06
| | OhioChessFan: <Rookfile> says: Well, I looked at some endgames, and confirmed Dionyseus's judgement that they are winning for white. A position of interest arises after
23. d4 Nb4 24. Qd2 Nb4 25. Rf3 Nd5 26. Nxd5 cxd5 27. Raf1 Qe7 28. fxg6 fxg7 29. b4 Bg7 30. b5 axb5 31. Qb4 Qe2 Black tries to fight back with his own queenside pawns. 32. Qxd6 Qc4 33. Qd7 and now:
A) 33......b4 34. Rf7 Bxd4+ 35. Bxd4 Qxd4+ 36. Kh1 and now: A1) 36..... Qe5 37. Rxh7 Rf8 38. Rhf7 Rad8 39. Qb7 Rb8 40. a6! Rxf7 41. Qxf7+ Kh8 42. a7 Ra8 43. Qb7 Qe8 44. Qxb4 Kg7 45. Re1 Qf8 46. Re7+ Kg8 47. Qe1 1-0 A2) 36.....b3 37. Qh3 h5 38. Qg3 Re6 39. Qg5 Qe3 40. Qxd5 Rae8 41. R7f3 Qe5 42. Qxb3 h4 43. Rf6 Qe4 44. h3 Kg7 45. Rf7+ Kg8 46. a6 Qe3 47. Qb2 Qe5 48. Qf2 1-0 B) 33.... Bxd4+ 34. Bxd4! Qxd4+ 35. Kh1 Qe5 36. Qxb5 d4 37. Qc4+ Kh8 38. h3 Rec8 39. Qa2 Rc7 40. Qf2 Qc5 41. Rf6 Rca7 42. Qe2 Random Visitor's computer gives +0.44 which is really good for white under his system |
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Nov-05-06
 | | tamar: In the current line under discussion, I haven't seen much analysis of <RandomVisitor's> 27...Re4 line. It arises after 23...Nd3 24 Qd2 Qb4 25 Rf3 Nd5 26 Nxd5 cxd5 27 Raf1 Re4 
click for larger viewNow at first it looks like our bishop is boxed in at b6, but Shredder 8 on deep analysis (16 hours) suggests the following line: 28 fxg6 fxg6 29 Qg5 Qe6 30 Bd8 Bg7 31 Bf6 Rg4 32 Qc1 Rc8 33 Qd2 Rf8 34 h3 Re4 35 Bxg7 1.10/20 
click for larger viewBlack must exchange rooks, and White looks to have a grip on the position because of the weak pawn on a6. |
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| Nov-05-06 | | Hesam7: <tamar> I have looked into this line. Black can try: 23... Nd3 24. Qd2 Nb4 25. Rf3 Nd5 26. Nxd5 cxd5 27. Raf1 Re4 28. fxg6 fxg6 29. Qg5 Qe6 30. Bd8 Bg7 31. Bf6 <Re1> 32. Bxg7 Rxf1+ 33. Rxf1 Kxg7: 
click for larger viewHow significant is our advantage? Black can not go to the pawn endgame. From the diagram Fruit 2.1 gives: 34. Qf4 Qe7 35. h3 Rb8 36. Qf2 Rb5 37. Qd2 Rb7 38. Kh2 Qe8 39. b4 Rf7 40. Rxf7 Qxf7 41. Kg3 Qc7 42. Kf3 Qc4 43. g3 (eval: +0.33 @ depth 17) 34. h3 Rf8 35. Rxf8 Kxf8 36. Kf2 Qf7 37. Kg3 Kg7 38. Qe3 Qc7 39. Kf3 Qf7 40. Ke2 Qb7 41. Qd2 Qb5 42. Kf3 Qf1 43. Kg3 Qb5 44. b4 Qc4 (eval: +0.28 @ depth 17) |
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Nov-06-06
| | tamar: Very interesting <Hesam7> I'll investigate with Shredder from 31...Re1. Hopefully, White can demonstrate some subtle queen moves threatening the a6 pawn or the d5 pawn that keep Black tied down. As you noted, Black cannot bail out under pressure with exchanges because the endgame is lost. |
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| Nov-06-06 | | Hesam7: <all> This looks like a draw: 24. Qd2 Nb4 25. Rf3 Nd5 26. Raf1 Qe7 27. Nxd5 cxd5 28. fxg6 fxg6 29. b4 Qe4 30. b5 axb5 31. Qb4 Qe2 32. Qb3 Qc4 33. Rc3 Qxb3 34. Rxb3 Re2. 29... Qe4 is suggested by <RV> as the best for Black and it looks like it draws. Any improvements?? |
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| Nov-07-06 | | twinlark: <Ohio> Read and understood. I'll mention it. |
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| Nov-07-06 | | RandomVisitor: <Hesam7>24. Qd2 Nb4 25. Rf3 Nd5 26. Raf1 Qe7 27. Nxd5 cxd5 28. fxg6 fxg6 29. b4 Qe4 30. b5 axb5 and now 31.Kh1! |
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| Nov-07-06 | | RandomVisitor: <Hesam7>After 31.Kh1: 31...Bg7 32.Qb4 Qe2 33.Qxd6 Qc4 34.Rf7 b4 35.Bc5 b3 36.Qf4 Kh8 37.Rb7 Qd3 38.Qf7
² (0.29) Depth: 18 00:06:32 10810kN |
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Nov-07-06
| | tamar: <Hesam7> In the line where we exchange on d5, Shredder is not able to make progress from your suggested improvement 31...Re1, although White retains a symbolic advantage. 24 Qd2 Nb4 25 Rf3 Nd5 26 Nxd5 cxd5 27 Raf1 Re4 28 fxg6 fxg6 29 Qg5 Qe6 30 Bd8 Bg7 31 Bf6 Re1 32 Bxg7 Rxf1+ 33 Rxf1 Kxg7 34 Qf4 Qe7
35 Qf3 (diverging from Fruit's 35 h3)35...Rb8 36 b3 Qe4 37 Qc3 Rf8 38 Re1 
click for larger viewThis looks very drawish. .44/20 Shredder 8 |
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| Nov-08-06 | | Brent Baccala: <OhioChessFan>, I know you said about a week ago that you thought he'd note 18. Qd2 in a post mortum. You called it, man... good job! |
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Nov-08-06
| | OhioChessFan: Thank you, thank you very much. It's the only thing I've gotten right this game. |
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Nov-08-06
| | OhioChessFan: Nov. 6 Pg. 637 of the World Vs. GMAN page:
<As one specific example, 18. Qd2 was absolutely not a computer's first choice. I happened to host the forum, and it was really considered an afterthought. At that stage, <Thorsson> called it a "sleeper" move (or something similar) and <twinlark> assigned me the forum on the lines of "it might be worth a look". A day later, after much human analysis, it became our choice. I am betting GMAN references that move in his notes to the game as one that was good and also surprised him.> |
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Nov-08-06
| | OhioChessFan: <Hesam7> <RandomVisitor> and <tamar> bottom line. Do you think Black will play 25....Nd5 and what are our prospects if he does? |
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| Nov-08-06 | | jepflast: From before our 22nd move, I had this line as a refutation of 25...Nd5. Is it still valid? 25. Rf3 Nd5 26. Nxd5 bxd5 27. Raf1 Re4 28. fxg6 fxg6 29. Qg5 Qe6 30. Rf6 Be7 31. Rxe6 Bxg5 32. Rxd6 Be3+ 33. Kh1 Bxd4 34. Bxd4 Rxd4 35. h3 and this is a won ending for white. |
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Nov-09-06
| | tamar: <Do you think Black will play 25....Nd5 and what are our prospects if he does?> I think it likely. Right now I haven't seen a win redeploying our bishop through 30 d8, but I haven't analysed the alternative 30 Rf6, <jepflast>'s line just above, which if successful would make GM Nickel go into a dreary endgame. |
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| Nov-09-06 | | Hesam7: <<jepflast>: From before our 22nd move, I had this line as a refutation of 25...Nd5. Is it still valid? 25. Rf3 Nd5 26. Nxd5 bxd5 27. Raf1 Re4 28. fxg6 fxg6 29. Qg5 Qe6 30. Rf6 Be7 31. Rxe6 Bxg5 32. Rxd6 Be3+ 33. Kh1 Bxd4 34. Bxd4 Rxd4 35. h3 and this is a won ending for white.> I dont know if it is winning, after 35. h3:
click for larger view35... Rd2 36. b4 Ra7 37. Kh2 Kg7 38. Rff6 Re7 39. Rfe6 Rf7 40. Rxa6 Rff2 41. Kg3 Rxg2 42. Kf4 Kf7 43. Re1 Rd4 44. Ke5 Rxb4 45. Ra7 Kg8 46. Kxd5 Rd2 47. Kc5 Rb8 (eval: +0.51 @ depth 21 by Fruit 2.1) |
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| Nov-09-06 | | jepflast: <Hesam7><35... Rd2 36. b4 Ra7 37. Kh2 Kg7 38. Rff6 Re7 39. Rfe6 Rf7 40. Rxa6 Rff2 41. Kg3 Rxg2 42. Kf4 Kf7 43. Re1 Rd4 44. Ke5 Rxb4 45. Ra7 Kg8 46. Kxd5 Rd2 47. Kc5 Rb8 (eval: +0.51 @ depth 21 by Fruit 2.1)> Play instead 37. Rf6, and I think you can see that black has no chance. |
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| Nov-09-06 | | Hesam7: <jepflast> after:
25. Rf3 Nd5 26. Nxd5 cxd5 27. Raf1 Re4 28. fxg6 fxg6 29. Qg5 Qe6 30. Rf6 Be7 31. Rxe6 Bxg5 32. Rxd6 Be3+ 33. Kh1 Bxd4 34. Bxd4 Rxd4 35. h3 Rd2 36. b4 Ra7 37. R1f6: 
click for larger viewIt still looks like a draw:
37... Rd4 38. Rxa6 Rxa6 39. Rxa6 Rxb4 40. Ra8 Kg7 41. Kg1 d4 42. Kf2 Rb2 43. Kf3 d3 44. Ra7 Kh6 45. a6 Ra2 46. g3 Kg5 47. Rxh7 Rxa6 48. Rd7 Ra3 49. Ke4 d2 50. Rxd2 Rxg3 (eval: +0.47 @ depth 21 by Fruit 2.1) |
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| Nov-10-06 | | Brent Baccala: Continuing on a post I made on the main forum, noting that he might want to trade knights on d5 because of the constricting effect on our bishop, has this forum looked at NOT retaking a black knight on d5? Maybe playing 26. Na4 instead? |
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| Nov-10-06 | | jepflast: <Hesam7> Good find. Looks like I spoke too soon. I've been working on this lots more, and it's going to be a very difficult endgame. Now I think White's best is 36. Rd7! where 36...Rxb2 will lose in a very long and complicated variation. So Black plays 36...Rc8 and it's hazy. But White still may be able to force a win. If not, perhaps some finesse such as b2-b4 earlier in the game will win. Man, this is complicated. |
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