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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 55 OF 129 ·
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Mar-03-07
 | | jessicafischerqueen: I"m tellin ya <e5> is better-- That's my vote. <e5> is definitely sound- I looked at it a million times. |
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| Mar-03-07 | | TTLump: could someone repost the best analysis for 13...e5 and 13...Nxd4? 13...e5 looks OK to me and is my second choice. I don't share Marco's concern about the position after
<13.f4 e5 is premature imo: 14.Nf5 exf4 15.Bxf4 Nde5 16.Nd5 is something we shouldn't allow>
16...Re8 and then 17...Bf8 should take care of that problem. AND that isolated pawn supporting BOTH Knights will be pinned as soon as we move our Knight on e5 ... I would be happier with 13...Nxd4, if after 14.Qxd4, our plan was 14...e5, forcing Black's Queen off that long diagonal and isolating White's e-pawn (after Qd2 exf4). And forgive my lack of knowledge but why is b5 so important? The other thing I don't like about this is that White will likely castle Queen side on the next move and this brings a second rook into the looming king side attact. Here is my analysis of 13...Qb6, which I think should have serious consideration for our next move ... We gain a tempo right away while bringing our Queen into the action, which I think is necessary to take some of the sting out of the King-side pawn storm. We also, as I think it will become apparent, prevent White from castling and connecting his rooks. His King looks pretty exposed there in the middle of the board with pawns removed or far advanced. after 13...Qb6, White must take time to answer the threat of Qxb2, and will most likeley play 14.a3 (allows 15.Na4, after 14...Qxb2, getting plenty of compensation for the pawn). so, 13...Qb6, 14.a3 d5! (challenges control of the center and clears the path for the bishop to come to c5)
15.exd5 Nxd4 16.Bxd5 Bc5 17.Bxc5 Nxc5 18.b4 (White doesn't dare take the pawn on e6, because Bxe6 gives us a winning position) Nd7 and now I am not sure what comes next. We are down a pawn and it is not clear whether we have enough compensation for it ... |
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Mar-04-07
 | | TheAlchemist: I also think that after <13...e5 14.Nf5 exf4 15.Bxf4 Nde5 16.Nd5> we could play <16...Re8 17.Bg2 Bf8>, we should be fine, although the knights do look a little too good. Maybe we can develop our play by carefully "avoiding" them? <TTLump> How about <13...Qb6, 14.a3 d5 15.exd5 Nxd4 16.Bxd5 Bc5 17.Bxc5 Nxc5 18.b4 exd5!? 19.bxc5 Qxc5>. We totally pin White down after <20.Nce2 Re8 21.Qd2 Bg4>: 
click for larger viewI'm really starting to like this position, unless I'm missing something, but we probably don't have enough. Still, <13...Nxd4 14.Qxd4 b5> is also good, we need b5 to develop our bishop and start our counterplay b7-b5-b4 etc. Play might continue 15.O-O-O Bb7 16.Be2 Qc7 and we should do fine as well. Maybe it's again a matter of taste... |
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Mar-04-07
| | TheAlchemist: Ok, an update on <13...Qb6, 14.a3 d5 15.exd5 Nxd4 16.Bxd5 Bc5 17.Bxc5 Nxc5 18.b4 exd5!? 19.bxc5 Qxc5 20.Nce2 Re8 21.Qd2 Bg4> Our threat is, say 22.Rb1 Rxe2 23.Bxe2 Re8 with a resulting ending of Q+P vs 2R, where the white king is also wide open and there are plenty of double attacks, after 24.Rxb7 Bxe2 25.Qxe2 Rxe2 26.Kxe2 Qxc2+: 
click for larger view |
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| Mar-04-07 | | Zebra: I don't like the look of 13 ...e5 at all, even if there are no immediate threats. I am undecided between ...Nxd4 and <TTLump>'s ...Qb6. |
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| Mar-04-07 | | TTLump: More on 13...Qb6. After <TheAlchemist> found a very nice continuation from my earlier post: <18...exd5!> (I have taken the liberty of removing the question mark, you are too modest!) The rest plays out without too much room for variation ... <13...Qb6, 14.a3 d5 15.exd5 Nxd4 16.Bxd5 Bc5 17.Bxc5 Nxc5 18.b4 exd5! 19.bxc5 Qxc5 20.Nce2 Re8 21.Qd2 Bg4 22.Rb1 Rxe2 23.Bxe2 Re8 24.Rxb7 Bxe2 25.Qxe2 Rxe2 26.Kxe2 Qxc2+> White can avoid the Q+P vs 2 Rooks ending by playing 25.Rb8! followed by 25...Rxb8 26.Kxe2 and now it is all even and White is still in trouble but not quite as bad, BUT even this position I think justifies us playing 13...Qb6. click for larger view
But I am still not certain of the line, especially move 19. instead of bxc5, White might try Nxd5 instead, and after 19...Qe6+ 20.Be2 Ne4, White holds I think (with a pawn to the good). So I am now leaning towards my second choice, 13...e5, but after doing this analysis I have a much better appreciation for the value of b5, so I am certainly not opposed to the idea of 13...Nxd4, but if we do decide to go that way, I would like to suggest we take a harder look at deferring 14...b5 and playing 14...e5, after 14.Qxd4. |
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| Mar-04-07 | | TTLump: oops, here is the FEN diagram that I meant to include with my previous post ... this is the position after
<13...Qb6, 14.a3 d5 15.exd5 Nxd4 16.Bxd5 Bc5 17.Bxc5 Nxc5 18.b4 exd5! 19.bxc5 Qxc5 20.Nce2 Re8 21.Qd2 Bg4 22.Rb1 Rxe2 23.Bxe2 Re8 24.Rxb7 Bxe2 25.Rb8 Rxb8 26.Kxe2> 
click for larger view |
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Mar-04-07
| | TheAlchemist: <TTLump> Thanks for posting it, I found 25.Rb8 too, but later forgot about it :-) and that might be better, you're right. Also, a possible continuation might be 22.Rh2, preventing Rxe2, but I didn't go into much detail there. |
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| Mar-04-07 | | Marco65: <13...e5> I think the position after 14.Nf5 exf4 15.Bxf4 Nde5 16.Nd5 is so bad for us not to require analysis, but that's just an opinion. Anyway 16...Re8? loses on the spot (17.Ndxe7 Nxe7 18.Nxd6) so something else must be found to make that variation work. <13...Qb6> 14.a3 is ingenious but not forced. What if they offer the pawn by 14.Qd2 Qxb2 15.Rb1 Qa3 ? Now we have to pay attention to both sides. I don't like this Poisoned-Pawn-like variation. <TTLump> I don't think 13...Nxd4 14.Qxd4 e5 (postponing ...b5) will be so different, probably it just transposes after 15.Qd2 b5 My current view is: <13...Nxd4> best, 13...Qb6 ok if we're willing to play the rest of the game defending like a tiger - I should say, like a Tigran! - 13...e5 weak |
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Mar-04-07
| | jessicafischerqueen: <Marco> <e5 weak>? Are you saying <Ukraine Weak!! Ukraine Strong, not Weak!> (from Seinfeld) LOL looks like the voting is going to Nxd4 anyway, so I'll look on from there. This is a magnificent struggle gentlemen!! We will crush them like Lemmings.... |
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Mar-04-07
| | jessicafischerqueen: <Still voting 13...e5 here> |
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| Mar-04-07 | | chessmoron: < <13...e5> I think the position after 14.Nf5 exf4 15.Bxf4 Nde5 16.Nd5 is so bad for us not to require analysis, but that's just an opinion. Anyway 16...Re8? loses on the spot (17.Ndxe7 Nxe7 18.Nxd6) so something else must be found to make that variation work.> If 16.Nd5, then 16...Bxf5 and the threat is gone. I like e5 as well.
BTW this is why I'm afraid of:
[Event "Chigorin Mem"]
[Site "St Petersburg RUS"]
[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Andreikin,D"]
[Black "Lugovoi,A"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2458"]
[BlackElo "2547"]
[ECO "B56"]
[Round "6"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. h3 e6 7. Be3 Be7
8. g4 O-O 9. g5 Nd7 10. h4 a6 11. f4 Nxd4 12. Qxd4 b5 13. O-O-O Bb7 14. h5 e5
15. Qd2 exf4 16. Bxf4 Ne5 17. Be2 Rc8 18. Kb1 Re8 19. Nd5 Bxd5 20. exd5 Nc4 21. Qc1 Bf8
22. Bg4 Rc7 23. g6 Re4 24. gxf7+ Kh8 25. Bg5 Qb8 26. Bf5 Re5 27. Be6 b4 28. Rh3 h6
29. Bf4 Re4 30. Bxh6 a5 31. Rg1 a4 32. Bxg7+ Bxg7 33. Qh6+ 1-0 |
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Mar-04-07
| | jessicafischerqueen: Please listen to <Wilson> e5 is our strongest move here anyway... even if it wasn't sound which it is... Vote <e5>!! |
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| Mar-05-07 | | Marco65: <chessmoron> Hoping your new avatar doesn't sew my mouth: 13...e5 14.Nf5 exf4 15.Bxf4 Nde5 16.Nd5 Bxf5 17.exf5 <and the threat is gone>. And so is White's weak e4 pawn, while our d6 is still weak, and White got for free a kingside pawn storm and an excellent outpost in d5 that can't be challenged anymore by a LSB. It's  imho.Take an inferior position, play the best moves, what you get is still an inferior position ;) (just a stupid axiom, of course I know what we are discussing about is whether the position is inferior in the first place) <jessicafischerqueen> Despite my deep respect for her majesty :) I still vote ...Nxd4 |
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Mar-05-07
| | jessicafischerqueen: <Jim> We're losing power man, I'm an Engineer not a Sanitary Napkin!! |
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| Mar-05-07 | | Marco65: <chessmoron> Re: Andreikin-Lugovoi 2005, Black's position seems very good for a long time, then White's more advanced pawns decide. That can happen in all variation, in particular in the 13...e5 14.Nf5 exf4 15.Bxf4 Nde5 16.Nd5 Bxf5 17.exf5 under discussion. White is much ahead in the pawn storm. It's a lot of moves before Lugovoi loses, we'll find improvements for sure. For instance I think 20...Nc4 is a little premature, the knight does a wonderful job in e5 controlling white Be2. |
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| Mar-05-07 | | hitman84: I agree with <Marco> I vote for <Nxd4>
btw <chessmoron> in the game you posted black commited suicide by playing 14...e5
I prefer 14...Qa5 with the idea b4->Rfc8 etc.. I've already posted my analysis. <TTlump>'s <Qb6> is a very interesting idea but white can sacrifice the b2 pawn and get a crushing king side attack. 13. ... Qb6
14. Qd2 Qxb2
15. Rb1 Qa3
16. Rb3 Qa5
17. f5 Nxd4
18. Bxd4 e5
19. f6 Bd8
20. fxg7 Re8
21. g6 fxg6
22. Bc4+ Kxg7
23. h5
click for larger viewQb6
14. Qd2 Qxb2
15. Rb1 Qa3
16. Rb3 Qa5
17. f5 Nxd4
18. Bxd4 Nc5
19. f6 Nxb3
20. cxb3 Bd8
21. fxg7 Re8
22. g6 fxg6
<23. h5 e5
24. hxg6 exd4
25. gxh7+ Kxg7
26. Qh6+ Kf7
27. Bc4+  >
23. h5 Bg5
24. Qf2 e5
25. hxg6 exd4
26. Bc4+
click for larger viewI'm against <e5> once again it weakens the d5 square and the ♘ on f5 is going to cause troubles for our king. |
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Mar-05-07
| | TheAlchemist: <hitman84> How about we try the immediate 17...Nc5? After 18.fxe6 Nxb3 19.exf7 Rxf7 20.cxb3 Ne5 we would be ok, wouldn't we? But they can play your suggestion 18.f6 Nxd4 19.Bxd4 Nxb3 20.cxb3 Bd8 21.fxg7 Re8 22.g6 fxg6 23.h5 and why can't we simply take gxh5? It's defended by the queen. 24.Qh2 h4 or 24.Qh6 Qg5. I'm only unsure about the interposition 24.e5, that's too much for me. Of course, this is all at first glance, I might have missed something really simple again. |
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| Mar-05-07 | | Zebra: I have also gone off the poisoned pawn idea, and vote for Nxd4, and then depending how white recaptures, b5, Nb6 or Qa5. |
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| Mar-05-07 | | hitman84: <TheAlchemist>
13. ... Qb6
14. Qd2 Qxb2
15. Rb1 Qa3
16. Rb3 Qa5
17. f5 Nc5
18. Rb1 e5
19. f6 gxf6
20. gxf6 Bxf6
21. Nxc6 bxc6
<22. Bg5 Qd8
23. Qf2 Bxg5
24. hxg5 >
23. Qf2 Nd7
24. Bc4 Kh8
25. Ke2
click for larger viewThe position looks dreadful for black.
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| Mar-05-07 | | Zebra: By the way I may not be around for our next move - I am at a conference Wed evening to Fri evening. |
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| Mar-05-07 | | Swapmeet: I'm voting 13...Nxd4, which is in keeping with our plan for counterplay on the queenside. 13...e5 looks like it may be tactically sound, but why play it now? From everything I've seen it only speeds up white's kingside pawn storm. |
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Mar-05-07
| | TheAlchemist: What do I do now, there's only 2 hours to go. Some are categorically for e5, some for Nxd4. In terms of votes, it's <Jessica>, <chessmoron> and <TTLump> (his 2nd choice, since it's obvious Qb6 hasn't received much support) for e5 and <hitman>, <marco>, <zebra>, <swapmeet> and me for Nxd4, plus two who haven't voted (yet). If I only abide by the majority rule, Nxd4 wins so far, but my feeling is that regardless of what we play, some people won't like it. I guess that's inevitable, though, I'm probably too idealistic :-). I at least hope I will receive everyone's blessing on this one, I don't want to be forced into taking another timeout here, I think we are going to need them in the future. |
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| Mar-05-07 | | Marco65: <TheAlchemist> I think the majority rule must always apply, unless someone requests a time-out, and it's not clear how many people should vote it in order to request it. Ideally, also a time-out should be voted by the majority. In practice when a time-out is requested we are short of time and not anybody shows up to vote it. I think the relative majority of people responding in that timeframe should be considered, except obvious exceptions (I think one person only is too little to be considered a majority). In this case, anyway, nobody requested a time-out yet. I hope nobody will feel the need for it, both lines have been analysed enough. If we don't agree, it's either because anybody evaluates the resulting final positions in a different way, or because some evaluates both lines similarly and choose according to her/his play style. Nothing you can do about it. |
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| Mar-05-07 | | Zebra: I agree it wouldn't be a good idea to take another timeout, I think we've had time to discuss the next move and I'm not sure another day would bring agreement. There seem to be strong feelings for and against ...e5. As far as voting is concerned, <Emperor> is ill and <dakgootje> often doesn't vote during the opening, so that may well be it. So, I don't know... |
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