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WCC Editing Project
Member since Jul-19-13 · Last seen Aug-24-24
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   WCC Editing Project has kibitzed 3286 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Jun-07-15 Biographer Bistro (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <zanzibar: Since I'm an adviser to editors, rather than an editor, I'm unfamiliar with what exactly editors can do.> I want to bring this post to your attention again: Biographer Bistro (kibitz #10966) It explains what editors can do and what not.
 
   May-31-15 chessgames.com chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <chessgames.com> Maybe you overlooked this post Biographer Bistro (kibitz #11028) , since the Bistro has become rather fast-paced. An answer would be interesting to several people.
 
   May-29-15 WCC Editing Project chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Chessical> Thank you very much for your contribution(s)! We hope that you will support us in the future, also. For sure, you have helped us quite a lot already. The draft in question is already finished and was send away, though. It is still a valuable source and
 
   Apr-01-15 Moscow (1925) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Capablanca> on his experience at <Moscow 1925>: <"Although very philosophical, very observant and completely dispassionate in my judgment about everything concerning chess and its great exponents, I was nonetheless <<<unable to ...
 
   Mar-08-15 Tabanus chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: Ribli - Torre Candidates Quarterfinal (1983) Audiovisual aid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8G...
 
   Mar-08-15 Alekhine - Bogoljubov World Championship Match (1929) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <beatgiant> In case you want to read further on this topic, I have prepared a sourced timeline that summarizes the <Alekhine-Capablanca> rematch negotiations from 26 Feb 1929 - March 1935: Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov 1934 ARCHIVE
 
   Jan-29-15 suenteus po 147 chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <One Third of the original "Big Three"> I beg your pardon! I'm on vacation in Canada, and I just now saw your post in the WCC forum. By "we" I meant the cg.com biographers, not the WCC project. All of the research compiled for additions to your intro was done by ...
 
   Nov-23-14 R Fuchs vs Tal, 1969 (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <MC Scarlett> If so, very very quietly...
 
   Nov-19-14 Alexander Alekhine (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Thanks for the correction! That sum makes more sense now in conjunction with the report on the organizers' losses. Good heavens- they can't have made much on ticket sales.
 
   Nov-17-14 E Walther vs Tal, 1966
 
WCC Editing Project: Queen trap Trick or Treat- this game was played on Halloween, 1966.
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

WCC Editing Project

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 96 OF 127 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tim>

To be more precise: when a word like "interzonal" or "championship" or "candidates" is actually part of a tournament title, in current practice those words will be capitalized.

When they do not appear in an actual title of an event, they will not be capitalized.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Tim> Oh!

I see what you mean.

Yes, you are correct sir.

<winning both the 16th and 17th USSR championships.>

It's got to be capitalized there because it's part of two actual tournament titles.

Nice catch!

Doh!

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: And more-

If "interzonal" has an identifying tournament name in front of it, we use a capital, but not otherwise.

"Saltandpepper Interzonal."

"interzonal"

Apr-19-14  Boomie: <Wood Chuck Chuck>

Thanks, boss.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Who's the Boss starring Tona Danza>

Well actually you know I've been screwing up so much this past week that I shouldn't be telling anyone not to do this or that.

I changed my mind.

You or anyone else can bring up any topic any time in this forum and I won't post anymore schoolmarmish admonishments "not to do this or that."

Do anything you want.

In this case, by disobeying the shrieking harridan, you actually found a mistake in the draft.

I'll put it another way:

<Tim vs. Harridan 1-0>

Seriously though, reminder to self- the editing has to be completely free for it to have the best benefit. So from now on there's no such thing as a "forbidden topic" or "forbidden edit suggestion."

If the draft writers get annoyed there are workarounds.

Example of a workaround: Last night I made a temporary "mirror" of a "mirror draft" so that I could finish writing the first Charles Bronson paragraph in secret.

Apr-19-14  Boomie: -

<Blame It on the Boss, a Nova>

Shriek all you like, it won't change my feelings for you or the work you are doing.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

<"Sorry, I've got a Headache" brand Timpon>

I feel the same way about you.

<Ohio>- I replaced "during" with "in" and I think I like it better:

"Bronstein's form improved dramatically in the interzonal,"

Further ideas welcome.

Apr-19-14  Karpova: <Jess: I'm wondering if we might start using "game two" and so on, instead of "game 3"?>

We already used numerals in Steinitz-Gunsberg World Championship Match (1890)

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

Yep, the boat has sailed on that one.

Apr-19-14  Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951

Why not put in links to USSR Championship (1948) and USSR Championship (1949) ?

Interesting turn of events, as first his win over Botvinnik at USSR Championship (1944) was mentioned, now only his dismal 15th place is.

It appears also a bit abrupt to me, first where and when he was born, second his dismal showing in 1944, followed thirdly by his great result in 1945.

Could the transition become a bit smoother? Maybe first that he was a promising junior or something else which would make clear why he was there at all? I know, it was a bit easier with older players like Gunsberg with edochess providing a nice and sourced overview over the player's career. But maybe that's also possible here.

And the 1944 result may take a positive turn by again mentioning his win over Botvinnik as something like a first sign of what was to come. You could also save space by leaving out the players' names he beat out in 1945 and maybe only say that he came in ahead of some of the strongest Soviet players - this should be enough for the reader as he can also click the link if he is looking for more.

You mention him being relegated to lower boards in team events - did he score well, i. e. did he show again signs of his potential there? This would connect it to Saltsjöbaden and make clearer why he played there at all, although he was not yet a GM (a fact mentioned explicitly).

You may also reconstruct the improved form sentence so that it doesn't sound as if his form sudenly improved during Saltsjöbaden, but perhaps something like <The interzonal marked the first showing of his dramatically/vastly improved form, and he carried this momentum forward,...> but I wonder if this is correct, considering my lack of knowledge of his showing in the team events mentioned before. I'm thinking of Kramnik being invited to Manila 1992 on behalf of Kasparov, and crushing there everything on his way.

Apr-19-14  Boomie: <Karpova: This would connect it to Saltsjöbaden and make clearer why he played there at all>

How did Bronstein get invited? I can't find anything on the internet. Just curious. We don't have to include it in the draft.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Good suggestions, I will address some of them.

<Bronstein's> precise performances are fully documented in the chronological list of the events he played in, which is directly above the draft.

He did perform well in the team matches, but against much, much weaker players, since he was on the lower boards with one notable exception, when he played first board and outperformed everyone in the tournament: <Prague-Moscow Match 1946>. It is telling, however, that in both matches against the USA he played 10th and last board.

But his form (as amply documented in the list) against strong Soviet opposition throughout 1947 was mediocre at best, which is the reason he failed to get the Soviet grandmaster title. All of the other Soviets at the Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948) were already grandmasters. In the <USSR Championship Semifinal 1947>, the last event he played before the internzonal, Bronstein even finished below <Lev Aronin>, who, though a solid player, was not destined for greatness in anyone's eyes.

I should think it very unlikely Bronstein was counted among the favorites to win Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948), given his relatively mediocre 1947 form, and the fact that he was not even a grandmaster yet. I'm not going to say anything like that in the draft though, since I don't have a source for such a statement.

<Tim> FIDE invited Brontein and six other Soviet players. You can read it from the horse's mouth here, if you can read Swedish. Or is it Danish...

"Tidskrift för Schack" nr.8-9 (Aug-Sept 1948), p.18 http://www.schack.se/tfs/history/19...

That source and translation is courtesy of the generous, and redoubtable <Tabanus> (long may his shadow continue to grow).

<Karpova> the abruptness following the first sentence certainly can, and will be addressed. I will look closer at some of your drafts and promotions to see how you do it, and try to make mine consistant with yours.

As for "showing potential" yes he did, but with the exception of the USSR Championship (1944), he did not show this kind of potential at any other time against strong Soviet opposition, or strong foreign opposition for that matter.

Counting <Keres> and <Smyslov>, who were seeded directly into the Budapest Candidates (1950) because they had played in the FIDE World Championship Tournament (1948), the fact that FIDE chose Bronstein for the Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948) along with six other Soviets means, and only means, so far as we know, that FIDE rated Bronstein among the top nine players from the USSR.

The last two Soviet championships were not hyperlinked because I thought the sentence flowed more smoothly without linking them.

That said, I can indeed put the links in and try to write a new sentence.

I'm going to leave in the list of players he beat at the USSR Championship (1945). I'm not worried about length at this point.

It shouldn't take more than a sentence or two to fix the "abruptness" problem after the first sentence.

Re-including Bronstein's first win over Botvinnik is a good idea- I will rewrite the paragraph to include that.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

<The interzonal marked the first showing of his dramatically/vastly improved form, and he carried this momentum forward,...>

That's excellent, thank you- I put that in.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: My dear <Tim>

<How did Bronstein get invited? I can't find anything on the internet. Just curious. We don't have to include it in the draft.>

It was already in the draft, and sourced to boot.

Apr-19-14  Karpova: <Jess: The last two Soviet championships were not hyperlinked because I thought the sentence flowed more smoothly without linking them.>

I think it is good to make use of the tournament pages, whenever possible. In this case, an exception to the rule of giving the exact name could be made and turn <16th> and <17th USSR Championships> into the respective hyperlinks.

<Jess: <Bronstein's> precise performances are fully documented in the chronological list of the events he played in, which is directly above the draft.>

But this doesn't end up in the draft. My point was just that it looks rather strange with his modest first results and then suddenly, three to four years later, he is invited to an Interzonal. I would suggest to work on the transition from <This earned him a spot on Soviet team events, although he was generally relegated to the lower boards.> to <Despite the fact that Bronstein was not yet a grandmaster, FIDE invited him along with six other Soviets to play in the Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948), which he won.<1,2>> with emphasis on the first sentence. Perhaps you could rephrase it to reflect that he performed well on the lower boards and in smaller events.

<This earned him a spot on the lower boards of Soviet team events, where he performed well. He also developped his skills in smaller events with good to solid results.> Or something like that. To show that there was a development and that he matured into a good chessplayer according to Soviet standard - not yet top-tier, but good enough to be given a chance at Saltsjöbaden, a chance he made use of.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

Definitely I will hyperlink the last two USSR Championships mentioned.

Also, I think this is an excellent suggestion:

<This earned him a spot on the lower boards of Soviet team events, where he performed well. He also developped his skills in smaller events with good to solid results.>

It helps demystify the apparent suddenness of his improved form. According to Bronstein's playing record, your sentence also precisely follows the facts- he *did* have good results in "smaller events," such as winning two Moscow Championships, for example.

I will put your suggestion, or something very like it, into the draft.

At present, I am scouring Rusbase and other sources to find out more about his early career, so I can solve the "abruptness" problem.

You know what though- I'd love to have been a fly on the wall of the Soviet Chess Federation during these years.

Why was Bronstein suddenly given 1st board in the <Moscow-Prague> match? And after he posted such a scintillating result, why was he not trusted to play higher boards in matches against the USA?

I suspect there were some behind the scenes politics involved here. But we have no information about that obviously, so it's not something we can speculate on in our draft.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova, fellow clams>

This part has to be rewritten to include a better transition from the first sentence:

################

"David Bronstein was born in Belaya Tserkov, Ukraine in 1924. After finishing a dismal fifteenth in the USSR Championship (1944), he improved to third place in the USSR Championship (1945), ahead of such strong players as Alexander Kotov, Igor Bondarevsky, Andre Lilienthal and Vasily Smyslov."

########################

Here, I have changed the following text, using <Karpova's> suggestion and adding a bit more explanation based on Bronstein's playing record leading up to the internzonal:

"This earned him a spot on the lower boards of Soviet team events, where he performed well. He also developed his skills in smaller events with good to solid results, such as twice winning the Moscow Championship. His form against strong Soviet opposition in 1947, however, was somewhat disappointing, and he failed to attain the Soviet grandamster title. Despite this, FIDE invited him along with six other Soviets to play in the Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948), which he won."

That's just a rough draft at the moment.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <grandamster> lol

<grandhamster>

On a more serious note, as mentioned previously, all six of the other Soviets in the interzonal were already Soviet grandmasters, so it seems unusual for a Soviet master to be included among them. I was surprised by that fact when I first read it.

That said, FIDE really did invite a lot of Soviet players eh?

Given that fact, it's seems more logical that Bronstein was invited.

Despite his mediocre form against strong opposition in 1947, he was by that point a permanent member of the Soviet team in all international events.

So he did rank in the top seven Soviet players (excluding Keres and Smyslov, who were already seeded into the Candidates tournament).

Apr-19-14  Boomie: <WCC>

<with good to solid results>

Putting too fine a point on it, I believe. Just "good" or "solid" will do nicely.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Trireme>

Excellent idea.

This audiovisual aid will help explain my choice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Po...

Apr-19-14  Boomie: After checking Bronstein's career details at Chessmetrics, it seems likely that he was selected for his outstanding performance in the Prague match. Winning the 1948 USSR Championships could have been a factor if FIDE had not decided yet.

Of course, it's all speculation. I guess the most we can say with certainty is FIDE picked him...heh.

Apr-19-14  Boomie: <Who Cut Cheese?>

"This audiovisual aid will help"

Alas, it's not available in my country. A little backwater called the Duchy of Fenwick.

Buns of Glory to the first to identify that obscure reference.

Apr-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: LOL CUT THE CHESE

I'm sorry you didn't get the Solid as a Rock video.

Bellingham police interference? I keep forgetting where your gaff is.

Olympia? Blaine? Puyallup? Walla Walla? Snohomish?

Why does Washington state hog all the best names for cities eh?

Is the Duchy of Fenwik from the "Mouse that ROARED?"

Do I win a bun?

<Charles Bronson's> story might be even more complicated than that. I'm thinking that was a lot of Russkies to invite to an interzonal, but look where they finished in the table. A good person to ask for more information on <Saltandpepper 1948> is <Tabanus>, who researched and wrote the brilliant introduction for it. Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948)

There weren't actually any "official zonal" tournaments yet. So, in a real sense, FIDE actually invited all of the players. Some according to their performances in "quasi-zonals" and such, and the rest by direct vote.

The details are far from clear. <Tab> also thinks that FIDE was "choosing" the lineup in likely combative "cooperation" with national chess federations. Of which the Soviets had a fierce one of.

I made this here for a handy way to play through all of <Bronson's> games at the interzonal: Game Collection: Bronstein at the Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948)

Apr-19-14  Boomie: "Is the Duchy of Fenwik from the "Mouse that ROARED?"" Well, that was the Duchy of Grand Fenwick but close enough. I am suitably impressed with you acumen. And your cheese cutting prowess.

http://media.photobucket.com/user/a... rolls&filters[primary]=images&filters[secondary]- =videos&sort=1&o=2

Apr-19-14  Boomie: ChestMetrics has Bronstein in the top ten by the end of 1947 anyway. So his choice is not such a surprise. He played against mostly GMs. Plus he was only 21 years old so they knew he was going places.
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