< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 6 ·
|Apr-06-12|| ||David2009: Duras vs Spielmann, 1912 White 45?|
45.Qg3! GOOT seeing 45...Qxh6+ 46.Qh3 GOOT 2! If this is right it is much easier than yesterday - what have I missed? Time to check:
Everyone got there long ago. <sevenseaman>: GOOT (Get Out Of That!) is in the eye of the beholder - I use it as shorthand for "I think this wins, it looks strong and is what I would play OTB, but I could be wrong". Here's the puzzle position
click for larger view
with an interactive link to Crafty End Game Trainer:
The robot defends with 45.Qg3 Qxh6+ 46.Qh3 Qxh3+ 47.Kxh3 h6 48.Rxe8+ Kh7 when 49.Rh8+ Kg6 50.Rb8 wins but not 50.Rg8+ Kh6 51.Rxg5+? hxg5 when the ending appears to be drawn
click for larger view
Here's a link to this last position:
If you can find a win please post it.
|Apr-06-12|| ||Once: What is a GOOT? <FSR> has summarised it well. It's a non-forcing position where your opponent can play almost anything he pleases. But the position holds a threat which cannot be avoided. Your opponent's free move doesn't help him to escape the threat.|
GOOTs are inherently risky. Because you are giving your opponent freedom to move any piece, there is a chance that he might find a move to refute your attack.
To illustrate, here's the position after white has played 46. Qh3...
click for larger view
White is offering black a free move. Black can play 46... Qxh3+ and white is forced to reply with 47. Kxh3. Then black can play absolutely anything that he wants. He is not in check and material is level. White's previous move (47. Kxh3) is arguably the least threatening move on the whole board.
When we play a GOOT we are saying that our position is so strong that I will give you a free move, any move that you want, and I'll still beat you. Hence Get Out Of That.
Where GOOTs differ from normal attacks is that we are not restricting the opponent's choices by playing forcing moves.
|Apr-06-12|| ||kevin86: problematic position-the rook and bishop act as a granade and the black queen as the "pin"-without it,white would double check and mate. |
The solution is to change that condition.
|Apr-06-12|| ||David2009: Duras vs Spielmann, 1912 postscript: <Phony Benoni: And, while we're speaking of other Duras vs. Spielmann games...>
Spielmann vs Duras, 1904 is an interesting echo of today's combination between the same players and the same winning tactic by Duras:
click for larger view
Spielmann now played
34.Rxb7 allowing 37...Qxd4 35.Kh1 Qd5+ 36.Kg1 Qxc5 37.Kh1 Qd5+ 38.Kg1 and only now 38...Qxb7. Not in the least daunted by these upsets, Spielmann went on to beat Duras 7-6 over the years, see http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...).
|Apr-06-12|| ||sevenseaman: Thanks to all three of you, <FSR>, <DavidMMIX> and <Once> I am now right and properly gooted. Its a tacit dare, 'Ok big boy, let me see how you get out of that' when there really <is> no way out.|
It occurs in almost all games, especially one-to-one contests, except that in chess its never vocalised. The closest and the sharpest example of this in chess I can remember is the World Championship Match, 1995 game between Kasparov and Vishwanathan Anand in New York.
On his way out the Russian slammed the door rather indecently hard while Vishy was still at the board. It was an ugly demonstration of hubris he must have felt, though it also indicated the mental pressure he has to have been under.
|Apr-06-12|| ||Patriot: Black is up a pawn.
After only a minute or so, 45.Qf4 makes a lot of sense. The queen hits the undefended rook, breaks the pin, and threatens 46.Rxe8#. Another point about this is the undefended black queen and the weak back rank and the alignment of the d4-bishop with the black king. What can black do?
45...Rh5+ 46.Kg2 Qg6+ 47.Kf2
I don't see any good responses for black after 45.Qf4. Another interesting move is 45.Kh1. 45...Rh5+ 46.Qxh5! since 46...Bxh5 47.Re8# but 45...Qxh6+ is deadly.
Ok, I need to back-track the whole thing. I didn't even see the mate threat from the beginning. 45.Qg3 looks interesting.
A) 46...Qxh3+ 47.Kxh3 Rh5+ 48.Kg3 Rg5+ 49.Kf4 I don't see the defense after 48.Kg3.
B) 46...Qd6 47.Kh1! and the mate threat is on again.
I'm wondering if 45.Qh3 is best. 45...Rh5 46.Qxh5 Qxe5+ 47.Bxe5+ Kg8 48.Qxe8# OR 45...Rh5 46.Qxh5 Bxh5 doesn't look good since 47.Kh1 Bf3+ 48.Kg1 Qg6+.
I believe 45.Qg3 is the move.
|Apr-06-12|| ||dzechiel: White to move (45?). Black is up a pawn. "Difficult."|
Very little time today, but the key move has to be...
This move threatens both 46 Qxg5 and 46 Rxe8#. Black has big problems. Even if he saves the rook with
45...Rh5+ 46 Kg1
he now has to deal with the additional threat of 47 Qg7#. I don't see any saving moves. Time for me to check.
Nuts. In my haste I overlooked the queen check. That's what made the position "Difficult" (the key move was easy to find). I hope to have more time tomorrow.
|Apr-06-12|| ||Patriot: Ok--In my line A, 48.Kg3 is a mistake since 48...f4+ draws! 48.Kg2! as <LoveThatJoker> demonstrates is the key. It seems that in problems where the win is imminent and you're in check, the best candidate is the one that avoids another check. It may not always be true but it's probably the first move to consider.|
|Apr-06-12|| ||scormus: My excuse for not getting this one is "family duty"
45 Qg3 is a cool move, I'd have needed a very clear head to see just how cool. The more I think about it, the more I like it.
|Apr-06-12|| ||stst: The double check by RxB releasing the B+ is indefensible for Black.
Only caveat is of course the White R @e5 is pinned by the Black Q.
So in order to protect the White K, White has to go the reluctant move - a Q-sac, by
45.Qg3 (resolving the pin)
IF (A)....RxQ, 46.KxR Qg6+, 47.Kf2 then no more check from Black... say Qxh6
48.RxB dbl+ #
IF (B)....Qxh6+, 46.Qh3 QxQ or Rh5, if QxQ, 47.KxQ and Black has no more checks; if Rh5, no threat yet, White goes for the kill: 48.RxB dbl= #
IF (C)....Rh5+, 46.Kg2 Rg5, 47.RxB dbl+ #
Those are the main lines, might miss some variations though.
|Apr-06-12|| ||stst: <Black's bishop is attacked, but he can't save it. Any bishop move, or 47...Rg8 allows white to fire his bishop-rook cannon with 48. Re8#|
That's the power of double check. Even if you give your opponent a free move they sometimes can't wriggle out of it. And that's the key to today's puzzle. All white has to do is defuse the pin on the Re5 and the threat of check along the h file. Once he has done that, the double check will decide.
Clear away all the irrelevancies until all that is left is the fundamental point. The Be8 is doomed.>
Agreed of course - that's why dont want to spend too much time to give all variations, even though I saw the Q swapping back to her original position after taking the P @h6, it doesn't matter too much!!
|Apr-06-12|| ||gofer: <<David2009:> The robot defends with 45.Qg3 Qxh6+ 46.Qh3 Qxh3+ 47.Kxh3 h6
48.Rxe8+ Kh7 when 49.Rh8+ >
Dave, Dave, Dave there are 3 pawns on the 5th rank, surely attacking those
would me more beneficial that letting the black king move up the board!?
Gives black no room to move. The threat of losing both the D and B pawns is
too much for the lump of metal to endure.
<49 ... f4>
<50 Rxg5 hxg5>
<51 Kg4 Kg6>
<52 Bb5 ...>
Its all over the bishop mops up all the pawns.
|Apr-06-12|| ||agb2002: Another overworked position.|
|Apr-06-12|| ||Marmot PFL: I like this example of the power of discovered check. Black has no escape except to pin the rook, and white can even give of queen for rook to break that pin.|
|Apr-06-12|| ||WinKing: <scormus: 45 Qg3 is a cool move, I'd have needed a very clear head to see just how cool. The more I think about it, the more I like it.>|
Exactly right! My sentiments also. The kind of move you would 'love to play' in a tournament if only you had the chance.
|Apr-06-12|| ||sevenseaman: For an alibi it was iron-clad, no issues. You hit the nail on its head though. Clear-headed you'd have found it, I have no doubt. The move was as much steeped in logic as yesterday's Rf1.|
Duras is brilliant to find it OTB. You must go to a game given by <PB> Duras vs Spielmann, 1907, if you really wish to see his mental dexterity.
I wonder if you go fer 'fd' on muddle-headed days or it works the other way around.
|Apr-06-12|| ||karik: I thought that Qxd5 was an easy win ... and I was right!|
|Apr-06-12|| ||doubledrooks: Although I solved it today, I'm fairly confident I've seen this puzzle before.|
Anyway, the idea is obvious: to break the pin on the Re5. Since a king move doesn't work, it has to be a queen move to block the h2-b8 diagonal. Hence, 45. Qg3 Qxh6+ 46. Qh3 Qd6 47. Kh1 and Black can't wriggle out of losing material.
|Apr-06-12|| ||LIFE Master AJ: 45.Qg3!! and 46.Qh3! and 47.Kh1! Too elegant. (I have seen it before ... but its still pretty.)|
|Apr-06-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Patriot> Thanks for the shout-out on today's puzzle!|
Have you come across anything interesting on Chess lately (game, theoretical rule, et. al)?
I have a game that you must see for it's lovely and interesting finish:
Kramnik vs A Chernin, 1996
|Apr-06-12|| ||FSR: <sevenseaman: Thanks to all three of you, <FSR>, <DavidMMIX> and <Once> I am now right and properly gooted. Its a tacit dare, 'Ok big boy, let me see how you get out of that' when there really <is> no way out.>|
GOOT is not a term I use, but as I understand from <Once>'s explanation, there <could> be a way (presumably unseen by the GOOT-er) for the GOOT-ee to escape. For example, White could play 45.Qf4?? GOOT! Unfortunately, there <is> a way for Black to get out of that one: 45...Qxh6+! and mate next.
|Jun-14-18|| ||ChessHigherCat: Typical case of the bad guy wins:
Old, rich hard-ass vs. the minstrel
"dur" is French for hard and "Spielmann" is German for minstrel.
To change the subject a bit, these guys very often play the top StockFish move, too, even in complicated situations, just like today's whippersnappers -- just to deflate the myth that the younger generation plays so much better than the old timers.
|Jun-14-18|| ||JimNorCal: I was about to ask for help on the game's pun ... but then it came to me.
There is a US company "DuraCell" that makes (presumably) "durable" batteries.|
Duracell has become Duras Hell to make the pun.
|Jun-14-18|| ||snakey77: 30. Bf3 is quite a nice move, I couldn’t really see the point of it at first and thought bc5 is incredibly better, but d4 looks quite dangerous for white, so the point of bf3 was to purely prevent any shenanigans on that diagonal.|
|Jun-14-18|| ||morfishine: <sankey77> Good point|
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