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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
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| Jun-05-09 |
| sfm: I like the graceful final comment by Botwinnik. |
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Jun-05-09
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| RandomVisitor: <Botvinnik gave 14...a5! 15.Bxc3..dxc3 16.Rd4 Qe7 17.Rd6 Ba6 18.Qd4 Rb8> White could improve with 15.0-0 or 16.Qd6 in that line. |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| chillowack: <Unlike Euwe, I make it a rule not to anatlyze such lines too profoundly before the game because it is most essential to be able to meet whatever surprises come up over the board and not everything can be forseen.>
What exactly does this mean? That Fine didn't analyze openings because he felt it dulled his spontaneity? Or that he didn't analyze openings because one could never cover every possibility? Either way, he seems to have missed a big opportunity to find useful resources. One could never survive in modern top-level chess with such a philosophy. But maybe in those days this attitude wasn't so unusual? |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| ughaibu: In any case, his preparation extends at least nine moves deep. |
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Jun-05-09
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| Boomie: <chillowack: <Unlike Euwe, I make it a rule not to anatlyze such lines too profoundly> The phrase "too profoundly" is key to understanding this statement. I think he is saying he didn't over analyze his openings. He studied them to a point where he felt comfortable with the position. |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| jussu: <chillowack> - The way I see it is that grandmasters of our days are so proficient in middlegame and endgame that they have nowhere else to improve than in openings. I think Fine's statement would be a useful suggestion for the amateurs of 2000s, who often waste their time and energy on pointless opening memorisation. My play improved considerably when I made it a point not to study the finesses in opening variations before actually playing those variations at least once. |
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Jun-05-09
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| Jack Kerouac: Another Fine game by a Psychiatrist..
http://rheaven.blogspot.com/ |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| Brown: <<jussu: <chillowack> - The way I see it is that grandmasters of our days are so proficient in middlegame and endgame that they have nowhere else to improve than in openings.>>> I agree in the focus of study but not in the reasoning. The middle and endgames remain remarkably difficult to master OTB, and close study of the opening stage is crucial to maximize one's chances in the later stages. Fine's statement speaks to "opening theoreticians" who were known for extensive knowledge of certain plans and created some TNs, but did not necessarily excel as well as their less-booked-up but "resourceful" peers. |
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Jun-05-09
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| furrer: i think his point is that studying/memorizing lines shortly before a game was wrong, as you wouldnt think on your own in the first 20 moves. |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| totololo: Looking to <furrer> post : DO someone know how many moves a IM/GM memorizes per line and how many lines? A kind of total memory volume necessary to his openings.... There is any literature on the web related to this subject? TY in advance for the help. |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| drnooo: Actually, all this whoop de do about analysis, memorization and such is a little silly between grandmasters. Take any line you like you feel your opponent is going to take: a. b. run it out on the best computer to a slightly inferior line about 10 moves in, c. vary at that point and run out the best moves , understanding the positions that arise around that .....unless of course he has done the same to you earlier........
what does this mean? That it still is impossible to really prepare ANY innovation unless you know for sure that your opponent is going into a line specifically at that one point. All the memorization they do is mostly a waste. Properly used it is much better for any of these guys to use different openings constantly and look at slightly inferior lines, that, with the wrong moves by their opponents will let the game turn in their favor. And guess what? That's what Lasker did. In his prime even against Capablanca. |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| tivrfoa: <RookFile>completely agree with you, but not all games of Fisher are clear, for example the game of the century xD and Fine for sure was a genius, just look his bio. |
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Jun-05-09
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| kevin86: I didn't get the pun until the explanation-it WAS topical with the swine flu in the news. Just wondering;if the winner had violated a law against paid appearences,could he be FINEd? |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| WhiteRook48: a fine game |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| Brown: <kevin86> Here in NYC, the swine flu is still quite topical. |
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Jun-05-09
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| Phony Benoni: Actually, Fine was noted for his learned approach to the openings. For example, see Fine vs J Rappaport, 1931 and Fine vs A Simonson, 1932. |
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Jun-05-09
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| SirChrislov: All this talk about Fine not analyzing openings properly, or too deeply before a tourney, you guys are missing the point, this guy didn't have to worry about that. no matter what he played, he knew he was gonna be ok because of his last name. |
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Jun-05-09
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| SirChrislov: This pun is phony pork baloney!!
pork baloney get it? congrats to the winner. swine flu, It took me aminute to get it, good pun and one of Fine's finest against the finest. I am a little disappointed though at how the people of El Salvador are calling it the "Mexican virus" and not the swine flu. it turns out La Seleccion(the MEX soccer team) is playing El Salvador as visitors tomorrow and everyone in El Sal is running around, panicking, trying to get a hold of a mask.
if you're sooooo worried people, just don't go to the game. what do yoy think? |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| remolino: Great pun, and most interesting positional game, congrats Phony Benoni |
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Jun-05-09
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| hedgeh0g: A fine game, indeed! |
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Jun-05-09
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| hedgeh0g: (har har) |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| chillowack: <Phony Benoni: Actually, Fine was noted for his learned approach to the openings. For example, see Fine vs J Rappaport, 1931 and Fine vs A Simonson, 1932.> LOL good points, P.B. ;) |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| visayanbraindoctor: This is a remarkable game. Fine managed to get Botvinnik into a positionally lost middlegame right out of the opening; and botvinnik apparently did not notice it at first. The future World Champion walked right into it. After 11..Nc6, an apparently normal developing move that does not result in any outright material loss 12. Bc6+ 'traps' Botvinnik's QB. In the ensuing middlegame, Botvinnik has to expend several tempi in order to develop his now bad Bishop, and in the meanwhile Fine piles up his pieces in the center. 20. Rd4 is another remarkable move. Fine disdains the peripheral black a-pawn, in favor of building up a crushing control of the center and the open d-file. Most players probably would have taken that a-pawn immediately. Fine clearly shows his deep positional understanding in this game. Against the World Champions in serious international tournaments, Fine had positive scores against Lasker (1 - 0, no draw), Alekhine (3 - 2, with 4 draws), Botvinnik (1 - 0, with 2 draws); and tied with Capablanca (5 draws). After the Pillsbury era, he was undoubtedly the strongest native-born American to play chess. Had circumstances differed (for example if there was no WW2 and there were regular WC cycles pre-WW2), IMO Fine most probably would have achieved a Title shot. |
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| Jun-05-09 |
| AnalyzeThis: Yeah, it's too bad. There were a couple of great American players, Reshevsky and Fine, and Kashdan may have been worthy at some point too. Under the old system, where challengers just needed to raise money (and admittedly, the champion needed to accept their challenge), these guys probably would have gotten a shot. They are really a casualty of world war 2 and the death of Alekhine. |
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Sep-08-09
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| birthtimes: In 1938--not 2008--it was accepted that newly-prepared lines in the openings were commonplace and expected...so one had to have confidence in their OTB skills because they didn't know in advance what new discovery or prepared line they'd be facing...it would sort of be like today's players playing chess 960 against someone who knew ahead of time what the original setup of the pieces would be, and then finding a nice little "surprise" cooked up at home to spring upon their unsuspecting opponents... |
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