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Mikhail Tal vs Robert James Fischer
"Fishing in the Tal Grass" (game of the day Dec-08-2013)
Bled-Zagreb-Belgrade Candidates (1959), Bled, Zagreb & Belgrade YUG, rd 6, Sep-15
King's Indian Defense: Petrosian Variation. Normal Defense (E93)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-08-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  parisattack: <piltdown man: I miss these guys!>

Yup, me too. Players, days and a brand of chess never to return.

Dec-08-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  playground player: Tal and computers--that's just not a mix. As long as human beings let computers teach them how to play chess, we shall not see Tal's like again.
Dec-08-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  Domdaniel: <PP> Only because many of Tal's attacks - wonderful though they were - were slightly unsound. Sheer complexity meant that human opponents, over the board and against the clock, were always likely to go wrong. But computers don't have the same weaknesses, and tend to mercilessly refute such attacks. Is it sad that this era has passed? I'm not sure. I still sometimes win games, at a lower level, with Tal-style unsound combinations: it feels like bluffing, and is never entirely satisfactory. I'd prefer to be good enough to discover the objective truth of a position. That said, Tal's games were certainly brilliant examples of competitive chess.
Dec-08-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  parisattack: <playground player: Tal and computers--that's just not a mix. As long as human beings let computers teach them how to play chess, we shall not see Tal's like again.>

I guess we're both dinasours <playground player>. 'Truth' I suppose welcomes the engines. But for me much of the joy of chess through almost half a century has been the questing and uncertainty; using my modest human skills is the pleasure of it.

I personally loath the advent of computers in chess. But it is what it is and we'll all just have to see how it plays out in the end. Perhaps a different kind of pleasure. I note the cg.com game against Simon Williams. I can't personally comprehend the thrill of comparing engine evaluations - but there you go, a lot of good folks apparently do enjoy it.

Dec-08-13  RandomVisitor: Chess will always have a human side. The purpose of my computer exploration here is to see if Fischer was right in his claim that he had the better position against Tal in all 4 losses.

It seems his claim was correct, at least as far as this game:

If Fischer had played 27...f3! he might have had a small edge


click for larger view

Rybka 4.1 x64:

[-0.66] d=21 28.Rf2 Kh8 29.Rcf1 Rab8 30.a4 Rxb5 31.axb5 Bd4 32.g3 Qg5 33.Rb1 Bb6 34.Qc1 Qh5 35.Qb2+ Kh7 36.Rbf1 Qg4 37.Qc2 Qg5 38.Qc4 Qd2

Dec-08-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  parisattack: Just different perspective, I suppose.

"Chess is a sea..."

Dec-08-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: For me, I think that it adds to the game's charm to see in actual variations that Fischer had, as he claimed, an advantage. So thanks, <RandomVisitor>. Gull and Houdini concur, but the advantage does not appear to be decisive.

That said, if we only had computer notes for this game, and had to lose Tal's insouciant concern more for his cup of coffee than killer moves, we would miss out on the personality battle that was taking place.

Dec-09-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: Sparkling game by Tal-or is it just the usual?
Dec-09-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<playground player> As long as human beings let computers teach them how to play chess, we shall not see Tal's like again.>

You mean if computers teach humans to play a game like this one: Rybka vs Houdini, 2011? Get over your anti-computer bias and misconceptions; computers are quite capable of playing Tal-like games, only with greater accuracy. We would do very well to learn how to play like that.

Dec-09-13  penarol: <AylerKupp> In the game you mention, Tal would have never played 14.Nxh7...
Dec-09-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  playground player: <AylerKupp> If I can't be prejudiced against computers, what am I still free to be prejudiced against? It's a personal thing.

I grant you, the game you posted is delightful--I never would've guessed machines had anything to do with it. But how am I supposed to drum up any rooting interest?

<parisattack> Maybe we can be coelocanths, and still be around after a lot of newfangled life forms are long-since fossilized.

<RandomVisitor> Although I think of you as one of the really big "computer guys" on this site, I can't hold it against you.

In one of the first CG consultation games a few years ago, in which we were allowed to let computers pick our moves, I suggested a move that ran counter to the majority computer analysis--and you were open-minded enough to support it, even though the machines said no. I think we wound up being a minority of two.

I will always appreciate that.

Dec-09-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  parisattack: <<parisattack> Maybe we can be coelocanths, and still be around after a lot of newfangled life forms are long-since fossilized.>

It may be our only hope! Wait it out for the computers to have a final shoot-it-out, be waiting with our MCOs in-hand.

Dec-09-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  tamar: <parisattack> Or MCO's in caudal fins while doing a headstand. http://www.dinofish.com/
Dec-09-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  playground player: <tamar> Cool coelacanth video!
Dec-09-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  parisattack: <tamar: <parisattack> Or MCO's in caudal fins while doing a headstand. http://www.dinofish.com/>

Yes, that's us BC chess players! We all play the French since Evans said we are a 'breed apart.'

Oct-29-14  DaveK: <<playground player> As long as human beings let computers teach them how to play chess, we shall not see Tal's like again.>

I think we should look to chess to help us develop skills for life & understanding the world, but not for chess itself.

People use computers to learn chess. They often use computers to play chess. After games with other people or to examine historical games they use computers to analyze chess. Whether we like it or not, this is a growing trend.

At the same time, chess is not growing in popularity. The game itself, as a game, is slowly moving towards becoming one of the great lost arts.

However, if we can adhere to the study of chess & transpose it's principles to life, to help us understand our many relationships, understand politics, understand businesses, understand societies, then just as we use tools to understand chess we can use chess as a tool to understand life.

Thus mastering chess should not be our Endgame. Mastering chess should be our Opening.

Oct-29-14  Rookiepawn: <...if Fischer was right in his claim that he had the better position against Tal in all 4 losses.>

The data may well be correct, but imho it means not so much. Tal may claim the same (he was also superior at some point of the game). Besides, he won.

Oct-29-14  Rookiepawn:


click for larger view

Maybe this position shows what I think is some kind of strategic principle (or whatever): some flank attacks, rather than being "vertical" (attack through the files), are kind of "triangular" clashing on the h1-a8 long diagonal, pushing WQ's flank agaist BK's flank.

I guess White's control of f5 - d6 - e7 forces the awkward BQ's step back to g5 and illustrates the point.

Nov-19-14  Rookiepawn: f5 - e6 - d7, I meant...
Mar-02-17  Joker2048: Tal outplayed Fischer here ...
4-0
Unbelievable
Mar-02-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Petrosianic: No, only 1-0 in this game.
May-07-17  Joker2048: Yes you'r right petrosianic ..
I mean in the last 4-0 not in this game..
This is just the beginning of the end
Jun-29-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Johnnysaysthankyou: I'd just like to point out that none of the lines in this game are unsound. There isn't even a "real sacrifice" in this game. Tal's play may be, as they say, "extra as @#$%" but its sheer whimsy and pure disregard for Fischer's play(Its like Tal is mocking him) doesn't make it unsound.
Jun-29-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  An Englishman: Good Evening: I like how Tal took Petrosian's famous KID Killer 7.d5 and made it his own.
Jun-29-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: Coincedentally, two other champs are playing the KID right now, Komodo vs Stockfish, Black to move:


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