< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Oct-13-09|| ||VincentL: No !!! It's black to play !
Then it must be 38....Bc3+
39. Qxc3 a5+ and the white king must take one of the pawns (a4/b4) resulting in the loss of the queen.
This seems more like a puzzle.
|Oct-13-09|| ||jsheedy: 38...Bc3+, 39. QxB, a5+ wins the Queen after K takes a or b pawn.|
|Oct-13-09|| ||YouRang: I feel a little dumb about taking so long to see it. I mean, the first moves I looked at were the check moves: (1) a5+ and (2) Bc3+.|
So why did it take me so long to consider using them BOTH?!
|Oct-13-09|| ||mworld: < TheTamale: <fyad reject: gave up after 20 mins. considered and discarded the correct move because i couldnt find the a5 continuation even though i had previously considered a5 independently. dont understand whats wrong with me>
That was EXACTLY what happened to me. So at least you're not alone.|
exact same here! Amazing how this is the case for a lot of us. I even decided a5 (first) was probably the right move because of the threat of losing the queen if white plays kxa5 ...if only i could have connected the dots and reorganized the move order. I can't believe i looked at bc3+ as well and still didn't connect the dots.
Its odd, but something about this position made it so hard to see this simple combination.
|Oct-13-09|| ||Patriot: For those wondering why you considered 38...Bc3+ and dismissed it quickly because of 39.Qxc3:|
This is what my coach calls a "quiescence error" which essentially means stopping your analysis before the position becomes "quiet". It is failing to consider further checks, captures, and threats. An example is thinking QxQ wins a queen without seeing that on the next move, PxQ wins it back.
But I think the other issue is failing to see there's a "removal of the guard" after 39.Qxc3 (39...a5+). This tactic is one of the most common tactical themes and is worth it's weight in gold to practice.
|Oct-13-09|| ||YouRang: <Patriot><This is what my coach calls a "quiescence error" which essentially means stopping your analysis before the position becomes "quiet".>|
I am myself an expert on this type of error. (Making them, that is.)
|Oct-13-09|| ||doubledrooks: Black wins material with 38...Bc3+ 39. Qxc3 a5+ (deflecting the king from protecting the queen) 40. Kxb5 Qxc3.|
|Oct-13-09|| ||gawain: Oh, a nice deflection. First the White queen will be lured into the vulnerable spot with Bc3+. She must capture. Then a5+ deflects the King away. The queen falls.|
|Oct-13-09|| ||playground player: Won't the trap work equally well if Black plays a5 first? Or is that too bloody obvious?|
|Oct-13-09|| ||Riverbeast: <Won't the trap work equally well if Black plays a5 first?>|
If ..a5 first, white plays Kxb5, and the king is dancing, bobbing, and weaving.....
And black would end up in last place
|Oct-13-09|| ||beenthere240: If black plays 38....a5+ first, white's king simply takes the b pawn and the fork evaporates. That's why the move order is critical.|
|Oct-13-09|| ||Marmot PFL: A Sicilian classic. Black (Kramnik) rejects the easy draw on move 26 and wins a brilliant game. A shame that he now plays mainly the Petroff.|
|Oct-13-09|| ||Check It Out: This one took me awhile. I noticed first the possibility of 38...Bc3+ but the square is double protected. Then I saw 38...a5+ but that seemed to fail to 39.Kxb5. Then I looked at 38...Rxc5 39.Kxc5 but couldn't spot any forcing continuations. Just before I gave up I thought, one more looksy. Then I saw it: Give the 38...Bc3+ then 39.Qxc3 a5+! and the queen is toast.|
|Oct-13-09|| ||muralman: My son got this one first rather quickly, after I discovered the bishop move. Pawns are powerful agents. I tend to forget that.|
|Oct-13-09|| ||sataranj: I cant believe topalov actually waited till kramnik made 39.a5+|
|Oct-13-09|| ||lost in space: <<YouRang:> I feel a little dumb about taking so long to see it. I mean, the first moves I looked at were the check moves: (1) a5+ and (2) Bc3+.
So why did it take me so long to consider using them BOTH?!|
You are not alone :-)
|Oct-13-09|| ||Riverbeast: <I cant believe topalov actually waited till kramnik made 39.a5+ >|
That was move 39, near the time control.....Maybe time was low, and the final moves were blitzed out?
Or maybe Topalov was hoping Kramnik would touch the wrong piece :-)
|Oct-13-09|| ||WhiteRook48: 38...Rxc5?!?!|
|Oct-13-09|| ||Jimfromprovidence: It would have been good, as kibitzers from earlier days have pointed out, if white had played 38 Bxb5+ instead.|
click for larger view
Now after 38...axb5 39 Qxg3 Qc3+ 40 Qxc3 Bxc3+ 41 Kxb5 Bxa1 42 Nxa1 it's more or less an even game.
click for larger view
|Oct-13-09|| ||SamAtoms1980: 38 ... Bc3+ 39 Qxc3 a5+ 40 Kxb5 Qxc3.
White now has two bishops for a queen and a pawn ---- a pawn which is ready to run down the board.
"Drawnik" takes the black pieces and gets more than a draw.
|Oct-13-09|| ||newzild: This took me longer than it should have for a Tuesday - about three minutes. Like many other posters, I saw the idea 38...a5+ 39.Kxa5 Bc3+ winning the queen, but couldn't find anything decent after 39.Kxb5. Once again, it came down to move order.|
By the way, this game is regarded as something of a classic.
|Oct-13-09|| ||Eisenheim: This one came right away to me and I was amused and mused that VT's pre-rybka program must've been very bugged.|
|Oct-13-09|| ||tivrfoa: <Patriot: For those wondering why you considered 38...Bc3+ and dismissed it quickly because of 39.Qxc3:
This is what my coach calls a "quiescence error"...> Nice. Here's a link about this: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heism...|
|Oct-16-09|| ||Formula7: I considered 38...Bc3+ right away but it took me a while to see that after 39...a5+ 40.Kxb5 the queen is hanging.|
|Feb-20-11|| ||notyetagm: Game Collection: EXCHANGE ON THE LOOSE SQUARE: THEN NA++,ND--|
Topalov vs Kramnik, 1995 38 - Bg7-c3+! creates loose c3-queen, 39 - a6-a5+ removes guard
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