< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Aug-31-13|| ||actinia: <RandomVistor> Can you run an analysis around move 23? it's a good foray into human intuition vs machine|
|Aug-31-13|| ||morfishine: Oh no, not Nezhmetdinov again
Candidates: 23...Qa8 & 23...d3
I was unable to force anything decisive. For example, I thought 23...d3 <24.e4> allows White to hold the balance
About the only positive aspect of this puzzle (for me) is I was able to "see" how a timely Ng4 by Black was possible. Unfortunately, I couldn't arrive at the concrete move-order that wins :(
|Aug-31-13|| ||bubuli55: For some reason I got the first 4 moves of the continuation easily. Yesterday I flagged on the first move. So now I'm feeling good. And then I deviated with |
27... Bxf1 28. Qxf1 Nf2+ 29. Kg2 Qxa4
which puts Black a piece up. I think Black can easily win with that.
But this is a Saturday puzzle. I should have known better. For me that 27... Qd5 is the very difficult move. Maybe if I had looked harder :)
|Aug-31-13|| ||DWINS: <actinia>, I let Stockfish 3 search to a depth of 28 and it has 23...d3 (-3.27) and 23...Qa8 (-3.11) as basically equal. I guess it's just a matter of taste.|
|Aug-31-13|| ||mistreaver: Saturday. Black to play. Very Difficult. 23?
Boy, a Nezhmetdinov puzzle. White is an exchange up.Black queen should swing over to the kingside somehow.
I thought the right first move is obvious:
23 ... Qa8
24 f3 (forced)
But then i decided to change the move order a bit:
24 exd3 Qa8
25 f3 Ng4
26 Rc4 and i can't see a way for black to continue
So maybe Qa8 is correct move
23 .... Qa8
If black could magically put his pawn on d3, Knight on g4 and Bishop on d4 it would be nice but alas.
25 Nb6 or smth
and i can't see a way for black to move further.
Time to see and learn something from the great master of a ttack.
Hmmm, i missed that if 26 Rc4 then 26 ... Ne3 wins.
I got the scheme right, but concrete move order was hard.
|Aug-31-13|| ||RandomVisitor: <actinia>Here is Rybka4.1:|
click for larger view
[-2.31] d=20 23...d3 24.exd3 Qa8 25.f3 Ng4 26.Nc6 Ne3 27.Nb6 Qb7 28.Qe1 Nxf1 29.Nd5 Bd4+ 30.Kh1 Be5 31.g4 Kg7 32.f4 Bb2 33.Rc4 Qa6 34.g5 Qxa3 35.Qh4 Re8 (0:03:37) 56433kN
|Aug-31-13|| ||Dr. Funkenstein: Black to play down the exchange
Blackís bishop and knight need to join the attack since the f8 rook looks out of play for the moment
23. Ö d3
24. cxd3 Qa8 25. f3 Ng4 26. Nc4 (Nc6 Ne3) Bd4+ 27. Kh1 Re8 and white is totally tied up, but still barely kicking
24. e4/e3 d2 25. Rb1 (Qxd2 Nf3+ or Rc2/c6 Qxf1+) Bxf1 26. Qxf1 Qxf1+ 27. Kxf1 Rc8 is worse
Didnít calculate out 27. Qd5! transferring the queen to the h-file to deliver mate and I think I would have had a difficult time finding this move in a game
|Aug-31-13|| ||kevin86: Every time a piece is moved,something is weakened...it shows here!|
|Aug-31-13|| ||agb2002: Black has the bishop pair for a rook and a knight.
The threat 24.Qxd4 is not real because of 24... Nf3+, at the moment.
The pawn on d4 could be used as a battering ram to further weaken White's position, so try 23... d3:
A) 24.exd3 Qa8 25.f3 Ng4 (threatens 26... Bd4+ 27.Kh1 Bg2+ 28.Kxg2 Ne3+)
A.1) 26.Nb6 Bd4+ 27.Kh1 Bxb6 - +.
A.2) 26.Re1 Bd4+ 27.Kh1 Nf2+ - +.
A.3) 26.Qe1 Re8 27.Qd2 (27.Qd1 Ne3) 27... Bd4+ 28.Kh1 Be3 29.Qc2 Bxc1 30.Qxc1 (30.Rxc1 Qxf3+ 31.Kg1 Qxg3+ 32.Kh1 Nf2+ wins) 30... Bxf1 31.Qxf1 Re1 32.Qxe1 Qxf3+ 33.Kg1 Ne3 34.Qxe3 (34.Qf2 Qd1+ 35.Kh2 Ng4+; 34.Qd2 Qf1+ 35.Kh2 Ng4#) 34... Qxe3, etc.
A.4) 26.Nc4 Bd4+ 27.Kh1 Bxf1 28.Qxf1 Nf2+ 29.Kh2 Qxa4 - +.
A.5) 26.Rc2 Ne3 - +.
B) 24.e3(4) d2
B.1) 25.Qxd2 Nf3+ 26.Kh1 Nxd2, etc.
B.2) 25.Rc2 Qxf1+ 26.Qxf1 Bxf1 wins decisive material.
B.3) 25.Rb1 Qxf1+ 26.Qxf1 Nf3+ 27.Kh1 Bxf1 28.Rxf1 Ne1 wins (29.Nb2(c3) Bxb2(c3)).
C) 24.Nc3 dxe2
C.1) 25.Nxe2 Bg4 26.f3 (26.Re1 Nf3+ 27.Kh1 Nxe1 28.Qxe1 Qxe2) 26... Nxf3+ 27.Rxf3 (27.Kf2 Nd4) 27... Bxf3 28.Rc2 Re8 29.Nc4 d5 seems to win.
C.2) 25.Qxe2 Qxe2 (25... Qa8 is unclear) 26.Nxe2 Nf3+ 27.Kh1 Bxf1 28.Rxf1 Rc8 and Black seems to stand better.
D) 24.Re1 Qa8 25.f3 (25.e4 d2 26.Qxd2 Nf3+) 25... dxe2
D.1) 26.Qxe2 Nxf3+ 27.Kf2 (27.Kh1 Nxe1+) 27... Bd4+ wins.
D.2) 26.Rxe2 Nxf3+ 27.Kf2 (27.Kh1 Nd4+ and 28... Bg4) 27... Bd4+ 28.Re3 Bxe3+ 29.Kxe3 Re8+ looks winning.
|Aug-31-13|| ||MarkFinan: Thats right Chris :)
Obviously Qa8 to kick off with, but ive only had a glance. If this was one of my games i *think* id find the win.
Im getting lazy methinks.
|Aug-31-13|| ||agb2002: Houdini prefers 24... Rc8 in my line C. I saw the move but were unable to evaluate it properly.|
|Aug-31-13|| ||Jack Kerouac: <Chris Owen> Our favorite Alzheimer Annalist. Or Computer Charade.|
"On the chessboard lies and hypocrisy do not survive long.The creative combination lays bare the presumption of a lie; the merciless fact, culminating in a checkmate, contradicts the hypocrite".
As Quoted by fellow World Champion Robert Fischer in his Preface to 'My 60 Memorable Games'
Interesting Bobby would use this quote from a World Champion who he didn't even include in his top 10 list of great chess players....
|Aug-31-13|| ||JoergWalter: <Jack Kerouac> Fischer must have changed his mind. See also the application of the Ruy Lopez Exchange and the commentary there. Then again, Spassky as well answered the question whether Lasker was among the 10 greatest with a "definitely no". (source unknown).
Understand who will or can.|
|Aug-31-13|| ||quinlan: Nice and brilliant!|
|Aug-31-13|| ||drnooo: was not aware that Spassky had the relatively low regard for Lasker.
As for Fischer this and Fischer that
on Lasker, all I have been able to get
is a cagy waffling on his part: nothing
very substantial. Besides when you boil
it all down, does any of their opinions
really matter, they are as much in the dark as anyone else. Lasker could beat
anybody and did, except Capa in his prime They all seemed to forget just
how profound Lasker was, look at how long and well he played, that shows some kind of very deep understanding of
not only the game but a sense of his opponents.
The converse it seems to me till I see
different: gimme a quote of Fischers
supposed recanting that shows he
understood that kind of depth. If you
call Lasker shallow and then say OOPS
it wouldn't hurt to back it up with a few examplers of how shallow you were in the beginning, otherwise you come off as the one in the wading pool of
the swim meet
|Aug-31-13|| ||patcheck: I didnít analyze well but I think the solution could be somehow:
23. Ö d3 exd3 24. Qa8 f3 25. Ng4|
|Sep-13-13|| ||FSR: <Jack Kerouac> I think <M60MG> was largely ghostwritten by Larry Evans. He, rather than Fischer, may well have put in that quote. I know for a fact that it was a favorite of Evans'; he had previously used it in responding to Santasiere, I believe (it could have been Weaver Adams). The exchange appears in Evans' book <Chess Catechism>. According to Benko (in the huge biography of him by Silman et al.) Fischer eventually came around and acknowledged that Lasker was a great player.|
|Sep-13-13|| ||FSR: Very ugly game by Lilienthal (who was a great player; he must have had an off day). Sticking your knights on the a-file isn't really something you want to do against Nezh.|
|Apr-09-14|| ||perfidious: <Jack Kerouac: Interesting (Fischer) would use this quote from a World Champion who he didn't even include in his top 10 list of great chess players....>|
If Fischer had restricted himself to learning the game from only top GMs, he would not have become world champion.
I have a recollection of Fischer and Tal discussing some then recent theoretical developments, with Fischer referring to a game between two obscure Soviet players-which gave Tal a start, even with his extraordinary memory and diverse chess erudition.
|Nov-11-14|| ||Granny O Doul: Fischer did (at least) once say "you can learn from anybody". Even Emanuel Lasker.|
|Dec-15-15|| ||yiotta: I seem to recall reading that Tal often watched chess instruction for children on Russian TV.|
|Mar-11-17|| ||zanzibar: Ah, now I know who's got Mr. Toad! <yiotta>. Looking good.|
Back on topic, how many games did these two play in Baku in 1951?
<CT> has another game, with the same colors:
and an interesting ending after White 29th move.
|Nov-07-17|| ||thegoodanarchist: Nezh was the original "Beast from Baku" :)
Even if he wasn't from Baku, he won this game in Baku, in Beast mode
|Oct-04-18|| ||thegoodanarchist: Anyway, there is much beauty in this game. In the final position, Black has 2 pieces en prise, and White's rook guards his second rank, yet White is helpless.|
Those nasty bishops keep his king pinned to the h-file. 29. Rh2 stops the immediate mate threat, but then 29...Nxh2 and the heinous bishop on f1 is guarded. White is now down two pieces, and the price he must pay to leave the deadly h-file is giving up his queen.
|Oct-05-18|| ||andrewjsacks: The same chess Goddess that blessed Tal smiled, though not quite as widely, on Nezh.|
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