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H Hallmann vs W Schneider
corr (1931), ?
Vienna Game: Stanley Variation. Reversed Spanish (C26)  ·  1-0


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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-19-10  gtgloner: Well, well, well, if it isn't our old friend, the Philidor's mate! 12. Qg8+ sets up the well-known pattern for the smothered mate on the next move. Let's see.
Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: Monday (Very Easy)

H Hallmann vs W Schneider, 1931 (12.?)

White to play and win.

Material: Today, we have a variant of Philidor's Legacy, a smothered mate.

Candidates (12.): Qg8+

12.Qg8+ Rxg8 [or Nxg8] 13.Nf7#

Premium Chessgames Member
  randomsac: Ah, Philidor's mate. This is really a very useful mate to remember. The puzzle would have been cool backed up a couple of moves.
Premium Chessgames Member
  DarthStapler: Got it easily
Apr-19-10  Uvulu: I believe this is actually called "Lucena's mate"
Apr-19-10  Eduardo Leon: I am late for work. Anyway, let's analyze every variation with great detail.


If <12...♖xg8>, then white could give black the death stare for a couple of minutes, while pondering his possibilities. Or he could imagine an hypothetical bet in which the one who wins the game sleeps with his opponent's wife or girlfriend. In any case, that's worth a couple of laughs. Okay, back to the game. This deep analysis leads to... well... <13.♘f7#>.

click for larger view

If <12...♘xg8>, then the scenario is completely different. Oh, noes! The piece in g8 is a knight, not a rook! That's not how I was told Phillidor mates were! Please, calm down, chess is only a game. If you lose, you lose, and that's all. But don't resign for any reason. Fight 'till the very bitter end. Or at least give a spite check: <13.♘f7#>. Whoa! It's mate? Let's call the arbiter to be sure.

click for larger view

Premium Chessgames Member
  SuperPatzer77: <tarek1> Hey, yourself! You're absolutely right about 9...Re8?? - Black should have played 9...Nf4! - counterattack move.


Apr-19-10  awfulhangover: Correspondence game! LOOOOOOL!
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanshin: Amusing mate, but I wonder how this game made it past <CG>'s quality control ;-)
Premium Chessgames Member
  anthro: Many of Schneider's games in the CG database are very short. Makes me wonder...
Premium Chessgames Member
  anthro: Of course, this one is from 1931 -- the rest are from fifty years later! Perhaps you all should ignore my previous comment.
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Black takes mic, Hallman forces it plugging 9..Re8's electric for white. Amp the knight g5 and charge. Fielding a defence is a step too far. A day when physically pooling the pieces fit..Qg8+ Nf7# shake rattle and roll, black is frazzled, shocking correspondence play.
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: White needs two things to happen:vacate f7 and force black to block g8-Hence,the queen sac and smothered mate.

Black has TWO ways to capture the queen,but both fulfill the condition above. Therefore:mate.

Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: About as "Monday" as it gets. :-)
Apr-19-10  VincentL: This "very easy" position looks like a smothered mate...

12. Qg8+ Rxg8/Nxg8 13. Nf7 mate.

On to tomorrow.

Premium Chessgames Member
  tpstar: Compare Grischuk vs Ponomariov, 2000

Philidor's Legacy is the Queen and Knight mating motif using a Double Check and ending in smothered mate with Nf7# or Nf2#, provided no defending piece can cover that square. I suspect calling this Philidor's Mate is a misnomer.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Marmot PFL: It was known long before Philidor, but the same could be said for many names in chess.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Domdaniel: Seems that both players assumed that 9.Ba3 would induce the automatic Rook move 9...Re8. This would be understandable, though careless, in Blitz. In a CC game it's risky play by White and catastrophic for Black.

He should have been able to work out that ...Re8 lost, and looked for alternatives. He might have been surprised to find a strong one in ...Nf4.

But people can make hasty, careless moves in correspondence games, especially in the opening stages (and before computer blunder-checkers).

Premium Chessgames Member
  dzechiel: <tpstar: ... I suspect calling this Philidor's Mate is a misnomer.>

I agree. I would describe this game as ending in a smothered mate, but not the the well known Philidor's Mate combination.

Apr-19-10  laskereshevsky: Childish....

Indeed a "Monday"

But a monday from when?!
Looks like from the 12/13 century!

(BTW 12.♕g8+)

Apr-19-10  Dupleix: I have myself been mated sometimes with that kind of smothered mate, so I Hope I won't miss it when I see it again :)
Premium Chessgames Member
  wals: Rybka 3 1-cpu: 3071mb hash: depth 14 ;

White sent the wolf to scare the sheep:-

-0.32 9.Ba3

Black responded:-

+5.38 9...Re8. better was Nf4 -0.39

Black compounded the error:-

+#3 10...Nf6. Two moves to extend the lost game were Qxg5 or h6.

Apr-19-10  rapidcitychess: Monday
Very Easy.

If you don't know the pattern, this could be extremely difficult.

Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: < <Uvulu> wrote: I believe this is actually called "Lucena's mate" >

Probably, only in Spain, but perhaps rightly so:

I called the mate today "a _variant_ of Philidor's Legacy". I believe it important to recognize and recall named patterns: in the absence of a name, a second best option is to recognize a close relative.

< <dzechiel> wrote: <tpstar: ... I suspect calling this Philidor's Mate is a misnomer.>

I agree. I would describe this game as ending in a smothered mate, but not the the well known Philidor's Mate combination. >

Once again, my talent for understatement has delivered me from the wrath of the experts :)

Premium Chessgames Member
  turbo231: Good puzzle. It took me about a minute to see it. I'm slow.
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