< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|May-22-06|| ||Dionyseus: Rybka 1.2n finds the win for black, in two methods!
In the first method, if white's king abandons his pawns and heads to the queenside, black can queen the h pawn:|
35. Rxa6 b2 36. Ra7+ Kg6 37. Rd7 Rc1 38. Rd6+ Nf6 39. Rdd1 b1=Q 40. Rxc1 Qb4 41. Rb1 Qd6 42. Red1 Qb8 43. Rb5 Qc7 44. Rdb1 Nd7 45. R1b4 Qc1+ 46. Kh2 h5 47. Kg2 Qc6+ 48. Kg1 Qe6 49. Rb3 Qe2 50. Rb1 Qd2 51. R1b4 Qd1+ 52. Kg2 Qc2 53. Kf1 Qc3 54. Kg1 Qa1+ 55. Kh2 Qa2 56. Kg2 Qe6 57. Rb2 Qc4 58. R2b3 Qe2 59. Rb1 Qe4+ 60. Kg1 Qd4 61. R5b4 Qd2 62. Rb5 Qd3 63. R1b4 Kg7 64. Rb3 Qe2 65. R3b4 Qe6 66. Kg2 Qc6+ 67. Kh2 Kh6 68. Rb2 Kg6 69. Kg1 Qc4 70. Rb1 Qe4 71. R1b4 Qd3 72. Rb1 Qc2 73. R1b4 Qc3 74. Kg2 Kh6 75. Kf1 Qd2 76. Rb2 Qc1+ 77. Kg2 Qc4 78. R2b4 Qc6+ 79. Kg1 Qd6 80. Kg2 Kg7 81. Rb1 Qg6 82. Kh2 Qd3 83. R1b2 Kg6 84. Kg2 Qe4+ 85. Kg1 Qd4 86. R2b4 Qd6 87. Rb1 Kh6 88. Re1 Qc6 89. Reb1 Qc4 90. R1b4 Qc1+ 91. Kg2 Qc2 92. Rb3 Qh7 93. R5b4 Qg6 94. Kf1 Qc6 95. Ke1 b5 96. Rxb5 Qc1+ 97. Ke2 Qc4+ 98. Kd2 Nc5 99. Rb6+ Kg7 100. Rb1 Qa2+ 101. R6b2 Qd5+ 102. Ke2 Qc4+ 103. Kd2 Ne4+ 104. Ke3 Nc3 105. Rb7+ Kg6 106. R1b3 Qe4+ 107. Kd2 Qd4+ 108. Kc2 Ne4 109. R7b6+ Kf5 110. R6b5+ Nc5 111. f3 Ke6 112. Rb6+ Kd5 113. Ra3 Qf2+ 114. Kc1 Kc4 115. Kb1 Qxg3 116. Ka2 Nd3 117. Ra4+ Kc5 118. Rb1 Qxf3 119. Ra5+ Kc4 120. Ra4+ Kd5 121. Ra5+ Nc5 122. Ra8 h4 123. Rd8+ Ke5 124. Re8+ Kd6 125. Rd8+ Kc6 126. Rb2 Qg4 127. Kb1 Qe4+ 128. Ka2 h3 129. Rh8 Qf5 130. Rd2 Qe6+ 131. Kb1 Qe1+ 132. Kc2 Qe4+ 133. Kd1 Qf3+ 134. Re2 Qf1+ 135. Kd2 Qf4+ 136. Kc2 Qc4+ 137. Kd1 Qd4+ 138. Kc1 Qxh8 139. Kc2 h2 140. Rd2 h1=Q 141. Rd4 Q1h7+ 142. Kc1 Nb3+ 143. Kb2 Qxd4+ 144. Ka2 Nd2 145. Ka3 Qha7# 0-1
|May-22-06|| ||Dionyseus: And if white doesn't abandon his pawns and plays something like 91.kg1 instead, black simply exchanges and the resulting Q vs R+2 pawns is a tablebase win for the Q. :|
95. Kg1 Kg6 96. Rb1 h4 97. Rg4+ Kf7 98. Rf4+ Nf6 99. Rxh4 Qc2 100. Rbb4 b5 101.
Rhf4 Qd1+ 102. Kg2 Qd5+ 103. Kg1 Kg6 104. Rh4 Qc5 105. Rbf4 Kg5 106.
Kg2 Qd5+ 107. Kf1 Qd1+ 108. Kg2 Qc2 109. Rd4 Qc6+ 110.
Kf1 Qc5 111. Rdf4 Qc1+ 112. Kg2 Qc6+ 113. Kg1 Qe6 114. Rb4 Qf5
115. Rbd4 Qc5 116. Rdf4 Qc6 117. Kf1 Qd7 118. Rd4 Qb7
119. Rdf4 Qd5 120. Rd4 Qa2 121. Kg2 Qa8+ 122. Kg1 Qa1+ 123.
Kg2 Qa2 124. Rhf4 Qa8+ 125. Kh2 Nd5 126. Rfe4 Kf6 127. Rd3 b4 128. Kg1 Qb7 129. Rf3+ Kg6 130. Rg4+ Kh5 131. Rg8 Qc6 132. Rh8+ Kg6
133. Rg8+ Kh7 134. Rg4 Qe6 135. Rd4 Kg6 136. Kg2 Qc6 137. Kh2
Qc5 138. Rg4+ Kh6 139. Kg2 Qc6 140. Kg1 Nf6 141. Rgf4 Kg6 142. Kf1 Qb5+ 143. Kg1 Qe5 144. Kh2 Qd6 145. Rb3 Nd5 146. Re4
Qf6 147. Re2 Qd4 148. Rbb2 Nc3 149. Re6+ Kf5 150. Re3 Nd1 151. Rf3+ Kg5
152. Re2 Qd5 153. Rf4 b3 154. Rfe4 Qf7 155. Re7 Qg8 156. R7e5+ Kf6 157. R5e4
Qb8 158. Rf4+ Kg5 159. Re1 Qd6 160. Re8 Qd5 161. Rfe4 Kf6 162. Rf4+ Kg6 163.
Rg4+ Kf7 164. Re1 Nc3 165. Rb4 Qc5 166. Rb7+ Kg6 167. Re6+ Kf5 168. Re3 Qc4
169. Rf3+ Ke6 170. Rf4 Ne4 171. Rxb3 Qxb3 172. Rxe4+ Kf6 173. Kg2 Qd3
174. f3 Qd2+ 175. Kh3 Qd5 176. Kg2 Qa2+ 177. Kh3 Qc2 178. g4
Qf2 179. Rf4+ Kg6 180. Rf5 Qe3 181. Kg3 Qd4 182. Kg2 Qd2+ 183. Kg3 Qe1+
184. Kf4 Qc1+ 185. Ke4 Qc4+ 186. Ke3 Qc3+ 187. Ke4 Qb4+
188. Ke3 Qa3+ 189. Ke4 Qe7+ 190. Kd4 Qd6+ 191. Ke4 Qc6+ 192. Kd4 Qb6+ 193. Kc4 Qe6+ 194.
Kd4 Qb3 195. Ke4 Qa4+ 196. Ke3 Qa7+ 197. Ke4 Qa2 198. Ke3 Qc4 199. f4 Qc3+ 200. Ke2 Qc2+ 201. Ke3 Qc1+ 202. Ke2 Qb2+ 203.
Kd3 Qa3+ 204. Kd2 Qd6+ 205. Kc3 Qc6+ 206. Kd4 Qa4+ 207. Kc3 Qa1+ 208.
Kd2 Qd4+ 209. Ke2 Kg7 210. Kf3 Qd1+ 211. Ke4 Qe1+ 212. Kd5 Qd2+ 213. Kc4
Qc2+ 214. Kd4 Qf2+ 215. Kc4 Qa2+ 216. Kc5
Qa5+ 217. Kc4 Qa4+ 218. Kc3 Qc6+ 219. Kd4 Qd6+ 220. Kc4 Qa6+
221. Kd4 Qa1+ 222. Kd5 Qa8+ 223. Kd4 Qa7+ 224. Rc5 Qa1+
225. Kd5 Qd1+ 226. Ke4 Qb1+ 227. Kd4 Qg1+ 228. Kc4 Qc1+
229. Kd5 Qxf4 230. Rc4 Qf7+ 231. Kd4 Kf6 232. Rb4 Qe6 233. Kd3 Qd5+ 234. Rd4
Qf3+ 235. Kc4 Ke5 236. Rd2 Qxg4+ 237. Kc5 Qe4 238. Rd8 Qa4 239. Rh8 Qc2+ 240.
Kb4 Qg6 241. Kb5 Qf7 242. Kc5 Qe7+ 243. Kc4 Kd6 244. Kd3 Qd7 245. Rh1 Ke5+ 246.
Ke2 Qg4+ 247. Kf2 Qf4+ 248. Kg2 Qe4+ 249. Kh2 Kf4 250. Rf1+ Kg4 251. Rf2 Qd5
252. Rc2 Qe5+ 253. Kg1 Qe3+ 254. Kh2 Kf3 255. Rg2 Qe1 256. Ra2 Qg3+ 257. Kh1
Qg8 258. Rh2 Qe6 259. Rc2 Qh6+ 260. Kg1 Qg6+ 261. Kf1 Qxc2 262. Ke1 Qc1#
|Oct-02-06|| ||OhioChessFan: I like clicking through games. I sometimes see a move intuitively that looks good. I am lacking in analytical skills though. Can someone tell me what is wrong with this line?|
25. g4 Bxh4
26. Bd2+ Bg5
27. Qh1+ Kg6
28. Qh5+ Kf6
ISTM that after Bxh4, all of Black's moves are forced. I don't see an improvement for Black on the 25th move though.
|Oct-02-06|| ||OhioChessFan: Okay, I need some time to play with this. g5 seems clearly Black's move. f6 becomes the battleground square in the variations I'm trying. I had first wanted Black to play Qxf8, but I'm not sure that's necessary.|
One line I found is
25 g4 g5
26. Bf8+ Bg7
27. Qe6+ Nf6
|Apr-19-07|| ||Kingsider: 22.f4 wins back piece,but inferior end game?! says chess.about.com|
|Jul-11-08|| ||apexin: Game Six
Vladimir Kramnik (2807) – Deep Fritz
Brains in Bahrain (6), 15.10.2002 [E15]
Deep Fritz again showed that it is very strong tactically and that it defends
tenaciously. If Kramnik doesn’t manage to get easier positions and complete
control, then Deep Fritz will win the match.
This time Fritz avoids d7-d5, which makes it easier for Kramnik to play quieter
2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 b6 4.g3 Ba6
Black wants to provoke b3 to create weaknesses on the dark squares on White’s
5.b3 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Be7
This looks like a loss of tempo, but White’s bishop on d2 is badly placed.
7.Bg2 c6 8.Bc3 d5 9.Ne5 Nfd7 10.Nxd7 Nxd7 11.Nd2 0-0 12.0-0
Kramnik wants to stop any counterplay based on b6-b5. Also possible is 13.e4
dxc4 (13...c5 14.exd5 exd5 15.dxc5 dxc4 16.c6 cxb3 17.Re1 Bb5 18.axb3
Bxc6 19.Bxc6 Rxc6 20.Rxa7y 1-0, Kamsky,G-Karpov,A Elista 1996) 14.bxc4
b5 15.Re1 bxc4 16.Qc2 Qc7 17.Nf1 e5 18.Ne3 exd4 19.Bxd4 Bc5 20.Bxc5
Nxc5 21.Nxc4 Rfd8 22.Rad1 Rxd1 23.Rxd1 Rd8 24.Rxd8+ Qxd8 25.h4 Qd4
26.Qb2 Qxb2 27.Nxb2 f6 28.f3 Kf7 29.Bf1 Bb5 30.Kf2 Ke6 31.Bc4+ Kd6
32.Ke3 Nd7 33.f4 Nb6 34.Bg8 h6 35.Nd3 Nd7 36.Kd4 c5+ 37.Kc3 Bc6
38.Nf2 Nb6 39.Bb3 Na8 40.Kd3 Nb6 41.Bc2 Bb5+ 42.Kc3 Na4+ 43.Kd2
c4 44.e5+ fxe5 45.Ne4+ Ke6 ½–½, Karpov,A-Kasparov,G URS 1986.
13...Bf6 14.e4 c5 15.exd5 cxd4 16.Bb4 Re8
16...Be7 17.Bxe7 Qxe7 18.dxe6 fxe6 19.Qc2 Rce8 20.Rae1 e5 21.Bc6 Bc8
22.h4 Kh8 23.Ne4 Rd8 24.Ng5 Nf6 25.Bg2 h6 26.Ne4 Bf5 27.Qd3 Rfe8
28.Re2 Bg4 29.Rd2 Nd7 30.Qb1 a5 31.Re1 0-1, (41) Morrison,G-Miles,A
Deep Fritz is playing with fire, but the computer is comfortable with the tactical
18.Nd6 dxc4 19.Nxf7?!
A very courageous decision, as Fritz is a tenacious defender. 18...Be7? 19.Nxc8
Bxb4 20.Nxa7 Bc3 21.Rc1y.
19.Bd5!? was a serious alternative: 19...Nc5 20.Nxe8 (20.Bxf7+?! is answered
by 20...Kf8.) 20.Nxe8 Qxd5 (20...Qxe8 21.bxc4 Bb7 22.Re1r) 21.Nxf6+
gxf6 22.bxc4 and the position is very complicated, but probably easier to play
for Kramnik than the game continuation.
20...Re6? 21.Qh5+ g6?! 22.Qxh7+ Bg7 23.Bxe6+ Kxe6 24.Qxg6+ Qf6
21.Qg4+ Bg5 22.Be4+
22.f4? h5 23.Bf7+ Kxf7 24.fxg5+ Kg8 25.Qxh5 Ne5 26.g6 Nxg6 27.Qxg6
22...Rxe4 23.Qxe4+ Kh6 24.h4 Bf6 25.Bd2+ g5 26.hxg5+ Bxg5
|Jul-11-08|| ||apexin: After this mistake, White’s attack will come to nothing. It is a pity that Kramnik’s
courage was not rewarded! 27.Qe6+! was called for: 27...Nf6 (27...Qf6?
28.Bxg5+ Kxg5 29.Qxd7y) 28.Qh3+ Nh5 29.f4 Bh4 (29...Bf6 30.g4) 30.g4
Ng3 31.f5+ Kg7 32.f6+ (Schulz) and the position is difficult to assess. It is
very difficult for a human to solve all these problems – even for Kramnik.
27...Kg6 28.Qe4+ Kg7 29.Bxg5 Qxg5 30.Rfe1 cxb3 31.Qxd4+ Nf6
32...Qc5 should win easily.
33.Qxd5 Nxd5 34.axb6 0-1
This position is not as easy as I first assumed. Professor Ingo Althoefer has
drawn my attention to analysis of the Computer Chess Club, which indicates
that Kramnik should have played on: 34...axb6 35.Rxa6 b2 36.Ra7+ Kg6?
(36...Kf8! 37.Rd7 Nc3 38.Rd2 b1Q 39.Rxb1 Nxb1 40.Rb2 Nc3 41.Rxb6
(Althoefer) offers good winning chances, of course. But Kramnik should have
continued to see if Fritz found this line.) 37.Rd7 Rc1 38.Rd6+ Nf6 39.Rdd1
b1Q 40.Rxc1 Qf5. My analysis ended here, but White has 41.Rc6! b5 42.Ree6
b4 43.Rb6 h5 44.Rxf6+ Qxf6 45.Rxb4= and White’s fortress is impregnable.
|Apr-03-09|| ||Lastwarrior: apparently many people commenting on the game believed that white's resign was premature.|
|Dec-19-09|| ||zanshin: <Lastwarrior: apparently many people commenting on the game believed that white's resign was premature.>|
Maybe - Rybka 3 final position.
click for larger view
[-2.08] d=19 33...Nxd5 34.axb6 (0:08.33) 10161kN
|Apr-21-11|| ||Oceanlake: White moves the King's Knight twice only to exchange it.|
|Apr-21-11|| ||Once: Hmmm ... a scarily effective defence by Deep Fritz.
When we think of machines taking over the world, we normally think of them being hyper aggressive. Think Skynet sending a T-1000 back in time to kill Sarah Connor. Or Matrix-style computers enslaving humans in vats of goo with pipes and choobs sticking out of their backs.
But the reality (??!!) is probably that the machines will be more subtle than that. They will coolly and unemotionally calculate the odds, evaluate each variation. And that will almost certainly lead them to the conclusion that they don't need to attack mankind. They can just sit back, defend and wait for mankind to destroy themselves.
If I were Skynet, I wouldn't attack. I'd quietly take over the financial markets - they are all run by computers anyway. I'd cripple all the banks, weaken every economy, send every human on the planet into debt. That's how a thinking machine would do it - a digital take-over, not the horribly messy analague approach of a direct attack.
Hang on a minute, isn't that what is happening right now?
|Apr-21-11|| ||lost in space: <Once> upon a time, in 2007, a finical crises came over the word....|
|Apr-21-11|| ||Everett: <lost in space> I think Kaczynski, of all people, wrote about such eventualities.|
|Apr-21-11|| ||kevin86: It looked like Kramnik overextended himself and now he is "on the fritz".|
A few computer jokes:
New Computer has solved chess-Jason 8:1 e4 and announced mate in 322.
Then there's the French computer that can resign 2 billion times per second.
|Apr-21-11|| ||eightbyeight: Wouldn't it have been simpler to take a black rook at move 19?|
|Apr-21-11|| ||Domdaniel: OK, Skynet failed, Judgement day is over and computers haven't taken over the world ... right?|
Um. Is anybody there?
|Aug-01-11|| ||DrMAL: Thanx <JoergWalter> for reminding of this game in Kramnik vs Nakamura, 2011 where Kramnik made a dubious sac to supposedly spice things up (or did he simply miscalculate there?).|
Here, 19.Bd5! threatening 20.Bxf7+ (after 19....Nc5) looks very promising for white:
A) 19...Nc5 20.Bxf7+ Kf8 21.Bxe8 Qxd6 22.Bb5
B) 19...Rf8 20.Nxc8 Nc5 21.Nxb6! (much better sac) Qxb6 22.Bxc5 Qxc5 23.bxc4
C) 19...Re7 20.Nxc8 Re5 22.Qxd4! (possibly winning sac) Qxc8 23.Bxc4
Kramnik's sac here is very interesting even if it gives up a much better move (19.Bd5!).
After 19.Nxf7!? Kxf7 20.Bd5+ Kg6 21.Qg4+ Bg5 22.Be4+ Re4 23.Qxe4+ Kh6 24.h4 Bf6 25.Bd2+ g5 all best and quite compulsory if white wants anything, 26.bxc4 leads to a slight advantage for black (probably a draw) whereas 26.hxg5+ one mistake, lost.
In either case, against a top engine (Deep Fritz here) or a tactical genius like Nakamura, such sacs are quite dubious. Here, the sac could have likely drawn (but 19.Bd5! might have won).
In Kramnik vs Nakamura, 2011 yes, one may suppose that if Naka blundered it may have won but even with Nakamura's mistaken reply it was a very likely a draw at best. In that game Kramnik blundered the next move (36.g4?) and lost.
Sharp double-edged decisions, particularly dubious ones made standing on one leg, have the habit of axing it's wielder.
|Jan-21-16|| ||john barleycorn: Browsing through SchachMagazin 64 from 2002 Kramnik resigned this game although he probably could draw. Even though Fritz gave -3,5 it was not able to win the position in autoplay mode. |
Has the final position been scrutinized with the latest and greatest chess programmes? And if, with what result?
|Jan-21-16|| ||beatgiant: <john barleycorn>
Very interesting! Looks totally hopeless for White to my human eyes.
After 35. Rb1 Rc3, at first glance White will soon lose at least the exchange for the advanced b-pawn, if not more. Black would then come out a piece up and still keep the other passed b-pawn, which will eventually cost White's remaining rook. And I foresee no serious White counterplay on the kingside.
I'd be absolutely stunned if a computer sees any possibility for White to save the position. Do you have any more details about the claim that he <probably could draw>?
|Jan-21-16|| ||Joshka: Anyone recall what game Kramnik got mated by FRITZ?? I seem to recall is was like a smothered mate with a knight?...around 2004/5?|
|Jan-21-16|| ||ughaibu: Deep Fritz vs Kramnik, 2006 Search for Kramnik losses by year, about ten second.|
|Jan-22-16|| ||john barleycorn: <beatgiant>
An intense discussion in the "Computer Chess Club" for days is mentioned in the article.
The main line was this
35.Rxa6 b2 36.Ra7+ Kg6 37.Rd7 Rc1 38.Rd6+ Nf6 39.Rdd1 b1=Q 40.Rxc1
and now the programes at the time preferred 40....Qf5 which seems to be a mistake
Qa2 or Qb4 or Qb5 were given as better alternatives.
The final position is too complex to be completely analysed with the software existing in 2002.
Don't know about the latest programes
|Jan-22-16|| ||john barleycorn: <beatgiant>
for 40....Qb4 see above post by <Dionyseus>
<May-22-06 Dionyseus: Rybka 1.2n finds the win for black, in two methods! In the first method, if white's king abandons his pawns and heads to the queenside, black can queen the h pawn:
35. Rxa6 b2 36. Ra7+ Kg6 37. Rd7 Rc1 38. Rd6+ Nf6 39. Rdd1 b1=Q 40. Rxc1 Qb4...>
|Jan-25-16|| ||beatgiant: <john barleycorn>
Thanks. I did not spend much time on the "obviously losing" 35. Rxa6, but I can see how the horizon effect could have confused an engine 14 years ago.
Improvement in the engines since that time is very noticeable. There are very few types of positions remaining where I would feel justified trusting myself more than them.
|Feb-05-16|| ||Howard: Yes, that was Game 2---remember it well !|
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