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Salomon Flohr vs Isaac Kashdan
Olympiad (1933), Folkestone ENG, rd 15, Jun-23
English Opening: Anglo-Indian Defense. Flohr-Mikenas-Carls Variation (A18)  ·  1-0


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sac: 16.Rxd7 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-30-13  Patriot: White is down a pawn. Black threatens 16...Bxg5, 16...Qxc3, and maybe 16...Nb6.

The queen looks to be losing some mobility after 16.Be3. I see a few captures, 16.Bxe7 and 16.Rxd7.

16.Bxe7 Kxe7 doesn't look like much.

16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Rd1+ Ke8 seems to lose steam.

16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Qd1+ Ke8 doesn't make sense.

16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Qd4+ Qxd4 18.Nxd4 - strange.

16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Be3 Qh5 and I would love to get 18.Ne5+ in but 18...Qxe5 spoils everything.

I'm just now seeing how this is possible.

16.Be3 Qh5 17.Nd4 hitting the queen and c6.

Probably best is 16...Qxc3.

16.Be3 Qxc3 17.Rac1 Qf6 18.Bg5 Qg6 19.Rxd7 Kxd7 20.Ne5+

16.Be3 Qxc3 17.Rac1 Qf6 18.Bg5 Qf5 19.g4

I think 16.Be3 is best. I'm not seeing any other threats that lead to anything. 16.Rb1 Bxg5 17.Rxd7 or 17.Rxb7 just doesn't seem right. 16.Be3 is a no cost way to put pressure on. Another idea is 16.Be3 Nb6 17.Qg4 Qxc3 18.Bd4 looks menacing.

I spent way too much time on this so it's time to see what happened.

Nov-30-13  Patriot: This one is way beyond me. I looked at the same line up to 17.Be3 and after that there are other squares such as f5 and h5 but white could go with 18.Nd4 I suppose to pressure c6. I will really have to look at this further.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Benzol: IIRC the position in this game position turned up in Alexander Kotov 's book "Think Like A Grandmaster". Seeing the position years ago I wasn't able to work out what the best move was at that time.
Nov-30-13  Akshay999: Not sure if Kashdan in his lifetime ever realised he missed Bc8
Premium Chessgames Member
  diagonalley: 16. RxN is an obvious candidate, but i'm ashamed to admit i got no further :-(
Nov-30-13  abuzic: 16.Rxd7 Kxd7
A) 17.Be3 Qa3 18.Qd4+ Kc7 19.Bc1 e5 20.Qxe5+ Qd6 21.Qa5+ Kc8: not clear

B) 17.Rb1 Rhb8
<17...Rab8 18.Bf4 Bf6> (18...g5 19.Ne5+ Kc8 20.Nxc6 Qxc6 21.Qxc6+ Bxc6 22.Rxb8+ Kd7 23.Rxh8; 18...Qxc3? 19.Qxa7) <19.Nd2! Bxc3 20.Ne4 Qa5 21.Qd1+ Qd5 22.Nxc3>

18.Be3 Qxc3
<18...Qa3 19.Rxb7+ Rxb7 20.Ne5+ Ke8 21.Qxc6+ Kf8 22.Qxb7 Rd8 23.c4>

19.Bd4 Qa3 20.Rxb7+ Rxb7 21.Ne5+ Ke8 22.Qxc6+ Kf8 23.Qxb7 Qc1+ 24.Bf1 Rc8

click for larger view

this looks more forcing leading to 2B+N+P for R+B after 25.Qxa7 or Bxa7

Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: I was "Floored" when black "Cashed-in"

(1) 16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Rb1 Rhb8 18.Be3 Qa3 19.Rxb7+ Rxb7 20.Ne5+ Kd6 21.Qxc6+ Kxe5 22.Bd4+ Kf5 23.Bd3+ Kg5 24.Qxb7 Rf8 25.Qb5+

(1a) 17.Be3 Qa3 18.Qd4+ Kc8 19.Qxg7 Rf8 20.Bd4 Qb2 21.Re1 Qxa2 22.Ne5 Qd2 23.Kf1 Qg5 24.Qxh7 Kc7 25.Qc2 Rg8 26.Bf3 c5 27.Nxf7 Qh4 28.Be5+ Kc8 29.Bxb7+ Kxb7 30.Qb3+ Kc6 31.Qxe6+

PM: While 16.Rxd7 appears to be the best candidate, the critical move is therefore move 17 when White has 17.Rb1 or 17.Be3 as in the game


Nov-30-13  FSR: After Flohr's blunder <28.Rd8+?? Bc8!> (instead of 28...Kc7??), White would have had to lose an exchange with <29.Qe5+ Ka8 30.Rxc8+ Rxc8> and now Houdini 3 gives as best <31.g3> (31.f4?! exposes White's king after 31...Qb1+ 32.Kf2 Rb8) <31...Rf8 32.Qd4 Qb3 33.h4 Qb4 34.Kg2 a5 35.Qd7 Qc5> and Black is better (-0.41).
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: <Patriot> Yes, a quite involved position; its hard to identify a clear theme other than keeping the position fluid

<FSR> Nice post


Premium Chessgames Member
  lost in space: Well, I saw the first few half moves but I was far away from solving this puzzle and I doubt I would have played Rxd7 OTB
Nov-30-13  abuzic: <morfishine: I was "Floored" when black "Cashed-in"

(1) 16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Rb1 Rhb8 18.Be3 Qa3 19.Rxb7+ Rxb7 20.Ne5+ Kd6>

(Best is 20...Ke8), cause now it's mate in 3: 21.Qd4+ Kc7 22.Qd7+ Kb8 23.Nxc6#

And in your line
<21.Qxc6+ Kxe5 22.Bd4+ Kf5 23.Bd3+ Kg5>

this is forced mate after 24.Be3+ Kf6 25.Qf3+ Ke5 26.Bf4+ Kf6 27.Bd6+ Kg5 28.Qf4+ Kh5 29.g4+ Kh4 30.Qg3+ Kg5 31.Bf4+ Kf6 32.g5#)

Even faster would be 23.Qf3+ Kg5 24.h4+ Kxh4 25.Qg3#.

Premium Chessgames Member
  gofer: This position is mostly about the loose Bb7 and an uncastled king defending Nd7, but thae addition of having a queen that can be battered about the board while while re-organises his pieces into a strong attack is the icing on the cake...

<16 Rxd7+ Kxd7+>
<17 Be3 ...>

Before launching an attack on Kd7 (via Pc6) white puts the queen in a bad position and brings more minor pieces to bare on the king...

17 ... Qxc3 18 Rb1 (offering either Bd4! winning the queen or Rxb7+ )

17 ... Qf5 18 Nd4 Qe5/Qf6/Qg6/Qc5 19 Rd1

17 ... Qh5 18 Nd4 Qe5/Qg6/Qc5 19 Rd1


Completely missed the main line... ...Hmmm.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: I got the pretty obvious 16.Rxd7 Kxd7, but didn't see how 17.Ne5+ would be a good follow...
Nov-30-13  BOSTER: <Patriot I think 16.B e3 is the best>. After this black can play Nb6 17.Qq4 Qf5 18. Qxg7 Bf6
Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: Perhaps white had a slightly better (but hard to find) 15th move:

click for larger view

Rybka 4.1 x64:

<[+0.55] d=24 15.Be3> Qxc3 16.Rab1 Nb6 17.Qe4 Qa5 18.Qd4 0-0-0 19.Qxg7 Qh5 20.Qg5 Qxg5 21.Nxg5 Rd7 22.Bh5 Rf8 23.Ne4 Kc7 24.Rfd1 Nd5 25.Bxa7 f5 26.Nc5 Bxc5 27.Bxc5 Ra8 28.Rb2 e5 29.g3

Premium Chessgames Member
  Peligroso Patzer: <supastarr <from Jul-01-11>: it does look like both missed Bc8, but 29 Qe5+ Ka8 30 Rxc8+ Rxc8 31 f4 looks strong (winning?) for white>

See comment by <FSR> posted earlier today.

Another game between the same opponents played in Hamburg three years earlier (Kashdan vs Flohr, 1930) featured a textbook endgame in which Black (with RP on 7th supported by its King) still loses against Queen plus King (no pawns) due to strong position of White’s K.

Premium Chessgames Member
  RandomVisitor: Perhaps white had a slightly better (but hard to find) 13th move:

click for larger view

Rybka 4.1 x64:
<[+0.66] d=23 13.Rad1> h6 14.Bh4 0-0 15.Bd3 Qh5 16.Rfe1 b5 17.Qb3 c5 18.d5 exd5 19.Qxb5 Nb6 20.h3 f6 21.Bg3 Bxg3 22.fxg3 dxc4 23.Bxc4+ Nxc4 24.Qxb7 Rfb8 25.Qc6 Re8 26.g4

Nov-30-13  Patriot: <<BOSTER>: <Patriot I think 16.B e3 is the best>. After this black can play Nb6 17.Qq4 Qf5 18. Qxg7 Bf6> You're right, that's another possibility and there is more beyond that. For instance, perhaps 19.Qg3 Bxc3 20.Bd3 or 20.Nh4. I don't know--there are so many ideas it's hard to say but it doesn't end there.
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Eccentric a done deal am d7 inclined first for clop..

a flight knight d7 ha gg con effect each delve line every dead a front fangle at to cad effect aim deem in dead a better cause in fad believe bishop beck and call in e3 be dutiful to harass after d7 job,

blands it now in aka a give go aim fetch back also

a quad grip I clefts clink for cedes ground a daring be-take a path beaten down for his door a federal pinch of salt c5 tries to make head way it eddy a wave in a bading 16.Rxd7 instead light could delve gg in e3 when fine advantage still alive slide a dip g4 wins at g7 line longer bill to rights again hold on a second 16.Be3 Qa3 17.Qg4 Nf6 18.Qxg7 Rg8 19.Qh6 Rd8 20.Rxd8+ Bxd8 21.Rd1 equivalated in free the bishop affront also works in lights favour rook up a family 16.Rxd7 Kxd7 coup affect now going back to e3 or betcha grin a sadness 17.Rb1 proves more effective in blew away da mage b7 thoughts again business at hand it edict in churlish dreams a driven knight cadence ogle of course it is hunt in b7 and er c6 to follow a upright 17.Rb1 Rhb8 18.Be3 Qxc3 19.Bd4 Qa3 20.Rxb7+ base accent a bientot he in just again beckon forth a mint appraisal one bishop down after c6 invades in basically cradleing bag effect boot 20...Rxb7 21.Ne5+ aid he in etc rook will get swallowed in marriage off re you have engage if ive got this right back be a 21...Ke8 at noodle to bake heffalump in a bane of his woes light cashes in manage to be 22.Qxc6+ a scarf wrapped rook off in b7 at he 22...Kf8 23.Qxb7 light wins a pawn in a7 queen plus three pieces versus c8 and c1 7e sacrifice be flight said accomodates cable in wire a7 pawn down plus a passer b7 dead beflow a2 should dwindle along in promote a8 a verdict in worth a punt foot back I against 17.Be3 as time although in cedes a g7 light prevails weak dark squares tell a languid black again forced it edict in rich g5 wins the day in wax a gaffer 17...Qa3 you kind of guess preys on his nerves a bit do good queen over slide a4 needs to get ie kingside chin a harangues sign etc a befuddle 18...Qd4+ king he evermore steps away prise there g7 becomes available at sates a effluent,

<18.Ke8 19.Qxg7 Rf8 20.Ng5 Rd8 21.Bh5 Bxg5 22.Bxg5 Rd5 23.c4 Rxg5 24.Qxg5 Kd7> success now for light having rook a1 the point and er jims the word booed it edacious in feed e7 or in dive d6 a shout at heed 24.Qe7 feels it a good call to sits cable now be cramp 25.Qe3 Rg8 or deem in a tour c5 to free clerics in good pick of the bunch it brewing infer at chins in flocks 26.Bf3 c5 27.Rb1 Bc8 extricates little hope in a meld c5 also capture in b5 us right rook will win again a7 accost c8 and er e7 i ment trapped.

Satchel l0 win be xray 24...Kd7 Rd1+ a plink plink,

fizz c5 also comes into consideration as call i wag,

of the tail (4.96) it fiddle arrive c8 by degrees king in back rank he effectively undone rook emperor chase over c5 ie at cast i gate rook out of the frame affable d1 picture invade f7

coming about turn h5 will carsh in burn d6 er lingo atpeg is aint h5 in damming h8 an existance om be of eg go 25.c5 Qb4 26.Rd1+ bar up e7 and er d6 cutoff f7 freeing two pawn again e6 find black at see glorious a light win expecting plans a foot in f7.

Barb a crab in sell his marching band g5 a dynamo re in h5 light i um repent back in c8 okay queen cage in a3 basic height rook i rade lowly d1 chip a flow in flight 26.Bxf7 Kb8 27.Bxe6 Qxa2 28.Rd8+ it scotch in couple pawns for a fog lift in poise for cap awn it green in gaugeoff rook bad headlifts in pressing 28...Kc7 entombed rook queen eg a damp squab in engages right would be cadavers 28.Qc5 alive in bloodied it edge off re in c8 bullrush a,

king c7 allows hanging high in good badge am c8 eg

win back the deficit edifice c8 in elevated it's cot bed equalise in a wall defences put kind eigth in rankle seal the deal circle c7 at segregate 29.Qe7+ have question of a fashion d8 co-terminates a paving slab concrete am indears c8 level?

All thats left to be judgement 29.Kb6 30.c5+ a far off mate exists i believe certainly by proxy bad glean c8 or boat pulls up harbour d8 find a rook at seeing d7 ah abode at bay for a queen oomph bishop too gives a bell i might add d4 g7 suttle go castle d7!

Nov-30-13  abuzic: <BOSTER: <Patriot I think 16.B e3 is the best>. After this black can play Nb6 17.Qq4 Qf5 18. Qxg7 Bf6> What about this continuation:
19.Qg3 Nd5 20.Rxd5!

A) 20..exd5 21.Re1!

click for larger view

21...Qg6 22.Bg5 0-0-0 23.Ne5 Bxe5 24.Qxe5 Qd6 25.Bg4+ Kb8 26.Qxd6+ Rxd6 27.Bf4

B) 20...Qxd5 21.Qf4 Bxc3 22.Rd1 Qa5 23.Ng5 0-0 24.Rd7 Qf5 25.Qg3 Qb1+ 26.Bf1 Bg7 <26.Kh8 Bc5> 27.Nxe6

click for larger view

Nov-30-13  mistreaver: Saturday. White to play. Very difficult. 16.?
This position is highly reminiscent to me, like i have seen it somewhere. Or at least have some idea. We will see if that is indeed so: 16 Rxd7 asks to be played, but how to continue?
16... Kxd7
17 Rd1+ Ke8
Hmm, after some thought i can't find anything concrete here for white, not even a clue of what idea could be, I don't see how i can distract the black queen and then play Qb4+ and Qxb7 Time to check and see.
Wow, amazing combination, after giving an exchange white plays a few "quiet" regrouping moves and then strikes. I was to keen to go with the "patzer sees a check, patzer gives a check" principle.
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: White is one pawn down.

Black is probably considering 16... Nb6 followed by O-O.

White can keep the black king in the center with 16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Rb1 with the idea 17... Rhb8 18.Be3 Qxc3 19.Bd4 Qa3 20.Rxb7+ Rxb7 21.Ne5+ Kd8 22.Qxc6 but I was unable to find a clearly winning continuation after 17... Kc8 or 18... Qf5.

Nov-30-13  PaulBl: What, instead of 28. Rd8? Should he play Qe5?
Nov-30-13  Everett: <Nov-30-13 PaulBl: What, instead of 28. Rd8? Should he play Qe5?>

It seems your move and a few others win on move 28;
Qe5, Qc5, f3 all look safe and good.

Nov-30-13  mel gibson: Checked it out in auto play
using Deep Rybka4 64 bit on an i7 quad core with 2 minutes per move. It ended up by move 26 with a Queen swap & white only 1.53 ahead. (one & a half pawns ahead )
Not nearly as devastating as first thought.

16 Rxd7 Kxd7
17 Rb1 Rhb8
18 Be3 Qxc3
19 Bd4 Qa3
20 Rxb7 Rxb7
21 Ne5+ Ke8
22 Qxc6+ Kf8
23 Qxb7 Qc1+
24 Bf1 Rc8
25 Bxa7 Qc7
26 Qxc7 Rxc7

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