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Louis R Eisenberg vs Jose Raul Capablanca
Casual game (1909), Rice CC, New York, NY USA, Apr-15
Italian Game: Two Knights Defense. Polerio Defense Suhle Defense (C59)  ·  0-1
ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Louis R Eisenberg vs Jose Raul Capablanca (1909)
Score sheet courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.


Kibitzer's Corner
Dec-28-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: Wow, a score sheet from 105 years ago! I love this website..
Dec-28-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: As early as move 7 Black arguably has the initiative.
Nov-20-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  maxi: Capa won in spite of being lost. (At least he looks lost to me.)
Dec-06-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: Beautiful score sheet, with the logo of the Rice Chess Club.

Above it says:

<Casual game (1909), Rice CC, New York, NY USA, Apr-15>

But the fact that there is a score sheet indicate that this was a serious game. I speculate that a bet was involved.

There are numerous pre-WW2 games in this site that are labeled or described as <casual> or <offhand> or <exhibition> games, but as far as I can tell, these were quite serious classical games. The fact that we have records of them proves that they were most probably written down in score sheets, which is why we have a record of them in the first place. The players obviously thought the games were serious enough to be written down in score sheets.

Dec-06-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: Beautiful score sheet, with the logo of the Rice Chess Club.

Above it says:

<Casual game (1909), Rice CC, New York, NY USA, Apr-15>

But the fact that there is a score sheet (and no mention that it was a quick game) indicates that this was a serious classical game. I speculate that a bet was involved.

There are numerous pre-WW2 games in this site that are labeled or described as <friendly>, or <casual>, or <offhand>, or <exhibition>, or <training> games, but as far as I can tell, these were quite serious classical games. The fact that we have records of them proves that they were most probably written down in score sheets, which is why we have a record of them in the first place. The players obviously thought the games were serious enough to be written down in score sheets.

As a youngster I once played a two game match with a friend. (I can see he is now an IM and has a few tournament games recorded in this site.) We used a chess clock and wrote down our moves in a score sheet. The games would probably be regarded now as perhaps <friendly>, or <casual>, or <offhand>, or <exhibition>, or <training> but in fact there was nothing <casual> or <offhand> about them; we drew them after fighting it out tooth and nail under classical conditions, writing down our moves just as in regular tournaments.

IMO if two chess players take the trouble of recording a game in score sheets played under classical time controls (with a chess clock), then it's a <classical game>. I suspect that most pre WW2 games documented in this site labeled <training>, <casual>, <offhand>, <friendly>, and so on, were played under these circumstances.

Dec-06-17  ughaibu: <the fact that there is a score sheet (and no mention that it was a quick game) indicates that this was a serious classical game.>

So, if you were playing a casual game with Capablanca, Kasparov, Carlsen, etc, you wouldn't record the game.

<if two chess players take the trouble of recording a game in score sheets>

There's only one score sheet in the picture.

Can anyone read what's written at the bottom?

Dec-06-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Magpye: If we look at Capablanca's events for April 15, 1909, we find that Capablanca played in a blitz knockout tournament, finishing in 2nd place at the Manhattan Chess Club.

That same day, he defeated Koehler in a rapid match, 5-1, also at the Manhattan Chess Club.

On the bottom of the scoresheet, Capa says he used the same variation against Charles Jaffe the following day, April 16th. He indeed did play that game against Jaffe as practice before meeting with Frank Marshall.

This game is not in Caparros's book on Capablanca, but I only have the 1991 edition.

Dec-06-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <ughaibu> If you have a contrary opinion, than just say so and write down your supporting evidence for it.
Dec-06-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Magpye: Ok, this game is presented in Chess Notes, #4551.

http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...

Dec-06-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <Magpye> I wonder if you have access to Capablanca 'lost' games in the days when he was still an unknown young player (basically in the 1906 to 1911) period with no international experience. I would appreciate it if you could post details.
Dec-06-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <I send you this game which I played the other day so that (barring the ending) you may know how not to play for Black. To make up for the game, I played Jaffe the following day and he never had a ... [rest of text missing].>

The text does not seem to indicate if this game is a quick game or classical.

Dec-06-17  ughaibu: Fischer had someone recording his blitz games. Should we conclude from that that they weren't casual games?

Whether a game is recorded or not, clearly is independent of the game's status as casual or not. This is easily proved, play a casual game and record the moves!

Dec-06-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  Magpye: <visayanbraindoctor: <Magpye> I wonder if you have access to Capablanca 'lost' games in the days when he was still an unknown young player (basically in the 1906 to 1911) period with no international experience. I would appreciate it if you could post details.>

No. My Capablanca library is limited to the more popular editions. I looked at Hooper and Brandreth's <The Unknown Capablanca>, and then checked Caparros's book, but it wasn't in there. That does mean that it had probably been found after them. That sent me to CHESS NOTES where I found the article I linked to.

I think <MissScarlett> is the resident Capablanca expert, so her opinion might be sought out.

Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <ughaibu: Fischer had someone recording his blitz games. Should we conclude from that that they weren't casual games?>

Did I ever make a definitive conclusion? I already said in my original post that it was a <speculation>. That roughly translates to a hypothesis or opinion. Not a conclusion.

Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <Magpye> Thanks.

As for me personally, I think this score sheet is the original one. Note the crossed out correction. If Capablanca made a copy and sent this to any one, he would most probably had done the whole score correctly with no erasures. He would have had the time to 'doctor' it. It looks as if he forgot to write down a move, and then corrected it during the game itself. See- he crossed out RxP on the 57th line and rewrote it on the 58th.

If Capablanca were writing down his moves in real time, IMO this was probably a classical game. (A chess player usually does not write down his moves during a quick game.) I opine that the two players were probably playing a classical game for a stake. Or maybe it was in some other 'unknown' local tournament.

On the other hand, if Capa did play a blitz and a rapid tournament in the same day, then this was probably another quick game. I doubt if he could have played two quick game tournaments and still have the time for a classical one.

Or maybe he did in the evening after a siesta. If someone raised money, taking advantage of the fact Capa was around the vicinity, Capa might have grabbed it.

I appreciate your efforts in researching the historicity of these games.

Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  morfishine: <visayanbraindoctor: <ughaibu> If you have a contrary opinion, than just say so and write down your supporting evidence for it> LMAO

Its laughable that <VBD> would spew out voluminous speculation and unsupported opinions, yet demand others provide supporting evidence

And this is a real gem: <As for me personally, I think this score sheet is the original one. Note the crossed out correction. If Capablanca made a copy and sent this to any one, he would most probably had done the whole score correctly with no erasures. He would have had the time to 'doctor' it. It looks as if he forgot to write down a move, and then corrected it during the game itself. See- he crossed out RxP on the 57th line and rewrote it on the 58th.

If Capablanca were writing down his moves in real time, IMO this was probably a classical game. (A chess player usually does not write down his moves during a quick game.) I opine that the two players were probably playing a classical game for a stake. Or maybe it was in some other 'unknown' local tournament.

On the other hand, if Capa did play a blitz and a rapid tournament in the same day, then this was probably another quick game. I doubt if he could have played two quick game tournaments and still have the time for a classical one.

Or maybe he did in the evening after a siesta. If someone raised money, taking advantage of the fact Capa was around the vicinity, Capa might have grabbed it.> This horrific, rambling piece of conjecture (without firm evidence) needs no commentary whatever

*****

Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <morfishine> Don't you see me trying to refer to the evidence above as in the score sheet itself?

This isn't the first time you have tried to insult me. Try to be more civil. If you can't, don't expect me to remain civil to your posts or to respond at all.

Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: Edward Winter is the source of both the game and the scoresheet:

<The game seems to have been unpublished until we gave it on page 26 of the Spring 1992 Kingpin. It was subsequently included on pages 65-66 of Kings, Commoners and Knaves, and for ease of reference is reproduced below:>

C.N. 4551

For the record, the note at the bottom of the score reads:

<Capablanca’s concluding note, to an unidentified correspondent, reads:

<‘I send you this game which I played the other day so that (barring the ending) you may know how not to play for Black. To make up for the game, I played Jaffe the following day and he never had a ... [rest of text missing].’>

<<>>>

So, this appears to be one of a series of pre-match exhibit warm-up games by Capablanca.

Here is the mentioned Jaffe game from the next day:

Capablanca vs C Jaffe, 1909

.

Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Winter plays his cards close to his chest, but the timing of its appearance in 1992 suggests he acquired it after the publication of his <Capablanca> book in 1989. The likeliest source would be Olga Capablanca with whom Winter was in a relationship: http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/...

If so, and Winter was hoping to get his hands on more Capa goodies, he would appear to have been frustrated because, following Olga's death in 1994, her papers were reportedly left to the Manhattan Chess Club: http://www.uschesstrust.org/a-chess...

Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <MissS: The likeliest source would be Olga Capablanca with whom Winter was in a relationship>

Wouldn't the likeliest source be the unnamed source to whom the scoresheet was given (or some descendant thereof)?

In other words, someone outside the family?

Otherwise, how did the wife regain custody?

.

Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <zanzibar: Capa played a series of exhibition games prior to his Marshall match at the club. This game was played on the day before:

L R Eisenberg vs Capablanca, 1909>

From your link Capablanca vs C Jaffe, 1909

Thanks. This pretty much clears the setting for this game.

Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Likeliest doesn't necessarily mean she's the likely source, just that she's likelier than unnamed, unknown people.
Dec-07-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <<MissScarlett>: Likeliest doesn't necessarily mean she's the likely source, just that she's likelier than unnamed, unknown people.>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4X...

.

Dec-10-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: From Capablanca vs C Jaffe, 1909

<zanzibar: Capa played a series of exhibition games prior to his Marshall match at the club. This game was played on the day before:

L R Eisenberg vs Capablanca, 1909>

<the score-sheet of Capablanca v Jaffe, written in pencil by the Cuban and with the additional information ‘20 moves an hour>

This describes the detailed setting for this game and for the Jaffe game.

Fortunately it gives the time control: <20 moves an hour>

That's well within the range of <classical> time controls.

If we assume most of these written-down <exhibition> games had more or less the same time controls, then they were quite serious games.

The nature of these games caught my attention when I studied some of the <exhibition> games Capablanca played in 1912 to 1913 against Europe's top masters. They were extraordinarily well-played. I find it hard to believe that they were played like in a barbershop or parlor with 30 minutes to each player.

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