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Fabiano Caruana vs Levon Aronian
World Championship Candidates (2018), Berlin GER, rd 13, Mar-26
Spanish Game: Closed Variations (C84)  ·  1-0
ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 9 OF 9 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-26-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  rogge: <If Caruana loses both he and Ding Liren end up with 8.0 points. The players drew both their games so tiebreak #1 does not give the advantage to either player. But Caruana will have the advantage in tiebreak #2 (most overall wins), 4 wins to 2 wins. Advantage Caruana.>

In this scenario, if Mamedyarov draws and ends up with 8.0 as well, Ding wins the Candidates. (Between the three it is Ding +1, Caruana 0 and Mamedyarov -1)

Mar-26-18  DrGridlock: While the g4 sac was not sound for Aronian, as <devere> points out some inaccurate play by Fabi did let black momentarily back into the game. In the press conference, both players stated that they did not see this line (... 31 Nxb4 followed by 32 ... Rd4) in their in-game analyses. Aronian had seen this computer line by the press conference, to which Fabi replied, "yes, this is beautiful."

The option exists for black to play Nxb4 on both move 30 and on move 31. Svidler notes that it is almost impossible for a human to find on move 30 ("sacrificing a knight on the side on which you aren't even attacking in order to gain a tempo to move the rook to d4"), but that were he playing in good form Lev might have found the Nxb4 resource on move 31.

Mar-26-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  messachess: Again, half a dozen players are about even against Carlsen in classical time. It's the blitz skill that gets the c-man over the top.
Mar-26-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  hoodrobin: <AylerKupp: <chessgames.com> has a threshold for the number of posts within a certain period of time and, if you exceed that, you get the message.> Why I never got that message? ;-)
Seriously, <AK>, go on with your interesting writings, I enjoy them and statistics in particular.
Mar-26-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  hoodrobin: If someone could beat Carlsen he should be Caruana. Maybe the <K> epoch stopped and the <C> epoch has begun!
Mar-26-18  DansChessLounge: Fabiano Caruana had so many ways to win this game! I can't believe both players missed 31...Nxb4. For a recap of the game with analysis, check out the video --> https://youtu.be/wk4Xf5S6E_w
Mar-26-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: Thanks devere,

Box analysis after the event is good. Recall looking at Nxb4 with a Queen check on c6 in a position, possibly this one.


click for larger view

and rejecting it quite quickly. The idea that cxb4 frees d4 for the Rook passed me by..

31...Nxb4 32.cxb4 Rd4


click for larger view

The d4 Rook plays a more active part threatening Rf4 and the b8 Rook gets in the check at g8.

And now apparently White's best move is 33.Kh3 (good luck finding that OTB) and then Black has the ridiculous 33...Qg5


click for larger view

Allowing f6+ and free discovered attack on the Black Queen.

And 'by the way' when the Knight moves you will be blocking the attack on your Black Queen with that Rook you sacced the Knight on b4 to get to d4.

34.f6+ Kh8 35.Bd1 Rg8 36.Ng2 Rf4


click for larger view

You are correct no human will get that with a clock ticking.

I know me. I'd not get it with no clock ticking. I rejected Nxb4 too quickly, too many other false trails to follow.

Maybe in a game if I hit on the Nxb4 and Rd4 idea I might do it because I would miss the Kh3 move and think I'm winning. But, same game. I'd not play Qg5.

I have to say 'well played Fabiano' and Aronian, whats happened to him?

He still in heaven after getting married and by losing today he has screwed up my Carlsen - Karjakin II ticket...Huh!.....Hope Danny Gormally runs off with his wife.

Mar-26-18  PJs Studio: I’m all about Caruana. Love to see his dynamic play against the mighty (and immovable) Magnus.

‘72 since an American has even challenged for the title. Where’s Nakamura anyway??

Mar-26-18  raadsheer147: It seems like a few people here are intimate friends with the players. Nice that this is shared with all of us. Who's gonna win, Fab, Ser or Shak? Or maybe Car, Kar or Mam? Ding is Ding, or is he Dili?. Will he be the one to face Mag? It's definitely not gonna be Al, Vlad, Wes or Lev. Also, Gri, Kram, So and Ar won't be the one taking on Carls.
Mar-26-18  technical draw: <AylerKupp> <Don't take it personally, I get that all the time.>

I've been on this site for a hundred years and I think that sometimes I post a lot but I have never seen that warning. I guess it must be posts on a single page that warrants the warning.

Mar-26-18  sudoplatov: Before Fischer, which American challenged? Marshall?
Mar-26-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: Video analysis of this game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50U....
Mar-27-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<rogge> In this scenario, if Mamedyarov draws and ends up with 8.0 as well, Ding wins the Candidates. (Between the three it is Ding +1, Caruana 0 and Mamedyarov -1)>

You and others are right, I stand corrected. I didn't consider Ding Liren's results against Mamedyarov, just his head-to-head against Caruana.

Mar-27-18  csmath: <I can't believe both players missed 31...Nxb4.>

Why? Would you have seen it without engine? Both were down into couple of minutes left for 10 moves. The idea of Nxb4 was to bring one rook on d4 and another to g8. Even then it is not clear what black's continuation would have been but he would be two pieces down in a totally messy position. I think this would require some calculation and surely Aronian had no time for that. Apparently he had another idea with e4 to bring knight into the game more directly. 32. Rh1 is a very precise move and more obvious but even there Caruana spent some time to find it.

These guys are not engines but I am sure they are a lot better than the rest of us here. Not even Svidler saw this without engine. He also went for e4 which tells you how distorted your view is.

Mar-27-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<technical draw> I've been on this site for a hundred years and I think that sometimes I post a lot but I have never seen that warning. I guess it must be posts on a single page that warrants the warning.>

I believe it's the number of posts in a small time period that triggers the message, not the total number of posts over a long period of time. I can't remember the thresholds but I think it's something in the order of > 5 posts in a 5 minute span.

I can see <chessgames.com>'s point to try to prevent users from flooding a forum but unfortunately it affects how I post somewhat. But it's nothing more than a minor annoyance. As I mentioned earlier I typically have a series of responses ready to post resulting from reading several pages of earlier posts. If I get that message I just wait a few minutes and then resume. Moral: You can slow down a blabbermouth like me but you can't stop him completely. :-)

Perhaps if <chessgames.com> kept track of the number of posts a user makes over a longer period of time, say, one day, calculate the average time between posts, and only trigger the message if this time is "too" short since that would indicate a large volume of posts in that one day by that user. Since as a result of my methods my posts come in bursts after relatively long periods of inactivity, the average interval between my posts should not exceed whatever threshold they select. However, I don't expect <chessgames.com> to change their method just to accommodate little old me, I can work around it.

Mar-27-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  ChessHigherCat: <csmath> I know, I hate that kind of snotty comment, too.
Mar-27-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <AylerKupp: <<devere> I think if the NBA wants you, you will know. Do you think that Kobe Bryant or Lebron James were in any doubt?> I think that we have lost the original thread of this discussion. <jphamlore> indicated that <The amount of money almost all chess players can earn simply does not justify the risk of not going to university>. To which I agree, but pointed out that the amount of money almost all high school basketball players can earn...>

If you make decisions based on whether you risk making money so early in life you may as well do nothing and look at your navel. What about the interesting things you can learn at a university? People can live quite happily NOT succeeding in the conventional sense. There is nothing wrong with being a truck driver or a labourer, or becoming a sparkie or whatever. You can still enjoy life as someone who has supposedly "failed". There are no risks, unless you are going to lose your life. So you just do what you like doing or are interested in...

Mar-27-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <DansChessLounge: Fabiano Caruana had so many ways to win this game! I can't believe both players missed 31...Nxb4. For a recap of the game with analysis, check out the video --> https://youtu.be/wk4Xf5S6E_w >

But he did win the game so what is the problem> ?!

I don't know the move you mean but anyone can miss anything. That in fact is one of the things that is what makes chess interesting. That is what makes it a game full of uncertainties. It is error which makes chess interesting.

Mar-27-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  hoodrobin: <technical draw:I've been on this site for a hundred years and I think that sometimes I post a lot but I have never seen that warning. I guess it must be posts on a single page that warrants the warning.>
Are we sure, first of all, that it really exists? :-O
Mar-27-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  ChessHigherCat: Roughly speaking, that "too many posts" warning is based on the number of posts per unit time, but there's also a "zing factor" that makes allowance for unusually interesting content, and a "gong" factor that is triggered when CG's lab mice die of boredom.
Mar-27-18  Ulhumbrus: <devere: According to Stockfish 31...e4? was the losing move, and instead the brilliant ...Nxb4!! 32.cxb4 Rd4 equalizes for Black.

The continuation might be 33.Kh3 Qg5 34.f6+ Kh8 35.Bd1 Rg8 36.Ng2 Rf4 37.Rxe5 Rxf2 38.Bxg5 Bd4 39.Bh4 Rf1 40.Re1 Rxe1 41.Nxe1 Bxa1 with a very slight edge for Black. I am doubtful that any human who ever played chess is capable of seeing all that with a clock ticking.> This suggests that if a sacrificial attack appears to be failing, it is necessary, as Alekhine put it, to invest more in the business

Mar-27-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<rogge> You and others are right, I stand corrected. I didn't consider Ding Liren's results against Mamedyarov, just his head-to-head against Caruana.>

After sleeping on it, I'm not sure whether if Caruana, Ding Liren, and Mamedyarov tie with an 8.0/14 score that Ding Liren wins the tournament. The first tiebreaker under section 3.7.a) says "The results of the games between the players involved in the tie." This can be interpreted, at least by me, in one of two ways:

1. You add the <total> results among the 3 players involved in the tie. The results of Caruana / Ding Liren were 1/2-1/2, and 1/2-1/2 with 1.0 points for Caruana and 1.0 points for Ding Liren. The results of Caruana / Mamedyarov were also 1/2-1/2, and 1/2-1/2 with 1.0 points for Caruana and 1.0 points for Mamedyarov. The results of Ding Liren / Mamedyarov were 1/2-1/2, and 0 - 1 with 1.5 points for Ding Liren and 0.5 points for Mamedyarov. That gives Ding Liren a total of 2.5 points, Caruana 2.0 points, and Mamedyarov 1.5 points. This is the interpretation that you and others have had, and since it gives Ding Liren the greatest number of points so he's declared the winner based on tiebreaker #1.

2. You look at the <individual> results among the three players. Ding Liren scored 1.5 points in his games against Mamedyarov so Mamedyarov is eliminated. But Ding Liren and Caruana both scored 1.0 points in <their> encounter, so we then go on to tiebreaker #2. This was my original interpretation.

And tiebreaker #2 is thankfully clear, "the total number of wins in the tournament of every player (remaining) involved in the tie." And here Caruana had 4 wins vs. Ding Liren's 2 wins so Caruana is declared the winner based on tiebreaker #2.

I just don't know what FIDE's intent and interpretation of tie breaker #1 is. Leave it to FIDE to make the description ambiguous.

Mar-27-18  PJs Studio: Sadly, Ruben Fine didn’t compete in AVRO and went into the mental health field instead. He was arguably the strongest chess player on the planet when he jumped ship for a far easier vocation. 😉
Mar-27-18  PJs Studio: Sorry, I stand corrected. Fine played in AVRO and tied for first(!) He skipper the candidates tournament in 1948 which he COULD have won.

He did retire from international play in ‘48 not ‘38

Mar-31-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: I see a lot of times in a tournament, whenever the player in first faces the player in last (and especially with white), black tends to win.

Not here though, as Caruana beats Aronian.

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