|Apr-03-16|| ||sachistu: Is this the same person as Pavlosz Geszosz, who is also listed on this site? |
Interestingly, on the Radosztics stamp and autograph site, he includes a list of participants at the Asztalos Memorial (Zalaegerszeg, 1969) along with their autographs. He spells it Gesos with a country designation of Greece. However, unless my eyes are worse than I thought (a real possibility), it looks like he writes it as Geszosz.
Moreover, in Issue 8, p.144 of Magyar Sakkelet, 1969, the name is given as P. Geszosz with a country designation of Hungary. The British Chess Magazine, 1969 , p.315 also lists Geszosz.
In the Greek magazine Opyrgos, 1976, it lists Geszosz as Hungarian at the Kallithea International.
Am wondering if this is the same person who may have emigrated from Greece to Hungary.
|Apr-03-16|| ||Annie K.: <Am wondering if this is the same person who may have emigrated from Greece to Hungary.>|
I am not familiar with him, but as a Hungarian speaker, I would say yes - 'sz' is the Hungarian way of writing the sound 's', since Hungarian uses the letter 's' for the 'sh' sound. So if a Greek person is called Gesos, and doesn't like his name being pronounced in Hungary as "Geshosh", we would very likely start spelling it Geszosz soon. :)
But it looks like he returned to Greece. So the 'Geszosz' spelling is only a phase, and this should be his main page; the other page (Pavlosz Geszosz) should be merged into this one.
I sent a correction slip. :)
|Apr-04-16|| ||sachistu: Thanks for your thoughts <Annie K.>. It's interesting that even the Greek chess magazine spelled it 'Geszosz'.|
I ran into another 'odd' situation with the Yugoslav player Djordje Djantar. This player from Subotica has a published game collection. Although the publishers are in Subotica, the book is written in Hungarian, and his name is spelled György Gyantár in the book. As a Hungarian speaker, this probably makes sense to you. I do not speak or write Hungarian, but I suppose I can see the substitution of 'Gy' for 'Dj'.
|Apr-04-16|| ||cunctatorg: Perhaps Pavlos Gesos didn't emigrate from Greece to Hungary and back; as he has been born at 1945, he might be a child of Greek political refugees, born back then in Hungary though it's more probable that he has been born in Greece at 1945 and he emigrated with his parents (at least one of them?) in Hungary until 1949; from 1946-47 until 1949 there was, in post-WW II Greece, a horrible civil war...|
|Apr-04-16|| ||sachistu: I do not wish to dispute <Annie K.>, but I think your supposition <cunctatorg> seems quite plausible. The vast majority of citations (at least in the 1960's) points to Pavlosz Geszosz with a country designation of Hungary. For example, Bartelski at Olimpbase cites Geszosz (and Hungary) for the Student Team Chp at Dresden. It seems the more prevalent spelling is Geszosz. |
Regardless, my main question was whether or not this is one person.
|Apr-04-16|| ||Annie K.: Yes, György Gyantár would be a Hungarian "translation" of Djordje Djantar, and more so than Pavlosz Geszosz, because György Gyantár is actually a Hungarian name (meaning these names exist in Hungarian naming conventions), whereas Pavlosz Geszosz doesn't, it's just a Hungarian transliteration of an obviously Greek name.|
I don't have a problem with <cunctatorg>'s theory either, thanks for the relevant info! :)
As I said, I don't know Gesos. Anyway, all his latest games show him playing for Greece, so whether he immigrated to Hungary temporarily, was born there, or was a refugee as a child, he's an ethnic Greek who lives in Greece now -there's no reason to maintain the tortured Hungarian spelling of his name. ;)
|Apr-04-16|| ||sachistu: Thanks for the additional explanation <Annie K.> Good points all around. It's all too common for a spelling to occur in a particular chess magazine whereupon that spelling gets propagated to game after game. And now we have over 300 occurrences. |
I do have to amend something I said earlier. The more common spelling now (by far) is P. Gesos. Perhaps the Hungarians wanted to claim him in the 60's, but now he belongs to Greece! :) Regardless, I do suspect all of the games I have seen were played by the same person (but that's just a hunch).
|Apr-04-16|| ||luftforlife: <sachistu>: Hello again! I hope you're well. Regarding Pavlos Gesos/Pavlosz Geszosz: I have enquired of someone who should know the answer to your question. I'll let you know what I find out. Best wishes.|
|Apr-04-16|| ||luftforlife: Several online sources recite without attribution that Pavlos Gesos was born at Aetomilitsa, Greece on May 25, 1945 (the date shown above).|
Here is a link to the trustworthy site (the other seems to be running untrustworthy Java applets):
|Apr-05-16|| ||sachistu: Hi <luftforlife> Good to hear from you again. I had forgotten about that site. Without the help of <Annie K.> one might have concluded there was more than one person. |
As <Annie K.> points out, the name Pavlosz Geszosz does not exist in Hungarian, but is a transliteration of a Greek name. It was rather confusing as 'Geszosz' represented Hungary in a match against Yugoslavia (1962) and played in Hungarian events (including the Budapest chp (1965). I think we all agree this person was Greek.
However, it is always a bit of a 'conundrum' (as you have put it) when dealing with various naming conventions. Do we disregard the name(s) used by the publication? We see this in many cases. For example, the Hungarian player Adorjan is sometimes listed as Jocha. And, of course, we have to deal with the various transliterations of Russian names.
These situations tend to cloud things when we are searching for all games by a certain player. Perhaps <cg> admin can add a note in the bio to include something like ...also known as Pavlosz Geszosz.
|Apr-05-16|| ||luftforlife: <sachistu>: Thanks for your reply. The entire conversation above is edifying and worthwhile. Great thread! I did not mean to give it short shrift; I definitely take <Annie K.'s> point, which is definitive regarding Hungarian transliteration of a Greek name, and, yes, we are all on the same page regarding this player. |
The source to whom I reached out for further elucidation and historical information (from whom I may never hear; not IM Gesos himself, by the way) most likely would be able to provide particular and authoritative insight into Pavlos Gesos's career and oeuvre, and might even be able to provide a timeline as well for ease of reference.
|Apr-05-16|| ||luftforlife: <sachistu>: I believe <cg> discourages the informal use by kibitzers and the formal use by editors of "a/k/a," but I'm not sure. Your points regarding the preservation of names and their spellings from original sources, with concomitant risk of creating or exacerbating identity-confusion, are well-taken. Any wholesome methodology for eliminating such confusion, including use of "a/k/a" or "f/k/a," would be welcome. Your suggestion makes good sense in this case, and in others like it.|
|Apr-05-16|| ||luftforlife: The following is respectfully submitted not to obviate, but rather to buttress, the foregoing suppositions, analyses, and explications. Not only have we confirmation of the singular identity of Pavlos Gesos (sometimes known as Pavlosz Geszosz), we have more about his circumstances as well.|
From the desk of IM Panayotis Frendzas (Panayotis Frendzas), former pupil and long-time close friend of IM Pavlos Gesos:
"Yes, it's the same person. Pavlos was raised in Hungary by Greek parents, who were political refugees. He returned to Greece after the fall of the junta, and worked here as a chemical engineer and chess trainer. He is retired now."
IM Frendzas graciously offered contact information for IM Gesos, should anyone wish to contact him.
Best wishes to all.
|Apr-05-16|| ||luftforlife: <cunctatorg>: Thanks for your sharing your historical knowledge, and for your perspicacious insight. Your surmise was right on-target. |
<Annie K.>: Thanks for applying your linguistic expertise and your formidable analytical skills. You were the first to disentangle these strands of spaghetti. :)
<sachistu>: Thanks for raising this issue ab initio, and for adducing such a rich and wide-ranging array of deep and meaningful sources. Your erudition is always edifying, your passion is always inspiring, and your enduring goodwill is always reassuring.
|Apr-05-16|| ||sachistu: Thanks for providing a definitive answer about P. Gesos (Geszosz sic). I'm sure we all appreciate your research and ability to put this issue to rest. |
I cannot recall the specific instances off-hand, but I thought I had seen <cg> use such descriptions (i.e. alt spellings) in some other bio's. I'll have to check that. With the number of references using the other spelling, it seems worthwhile to include such information (to avoid what we just went through...but where's the fun in that?!)
|Apr-05-16|| ||luftforlife: <sachistu>: Always happy to help. Great fun indeed! :) |
If I can find the injunction to editors or the reproof to kibitzers to avoid "a/k/a," I'll post in your forum with a link to the kibitz(es).
|Apr-05-16|| ||Annie K.: Great job, everybody!
Perhaps one of our editors could use the info here for a short bio. The alternative name spelling while living in Hungary issue could be included as a comment there. :)
|Apr-06-16|| ||sachistu: Good thought <Annie K.> Is this something we/I (you?) need to mention to <cg> admin? It doesn't seem to fall precisely under the category of a correction slip. Am not sure of the protocol in cases like this. Your thoughts?|
|Apr-06-16|| ||offramp: It's as confusing as all getout.|
|Apr-06-16|| ||Annie K.: Suggested bio:
International Master (1980) and FIDE Trainer.
'Pavlos was raised in Hungary by Greek parents, who were political refugees. He returned to Greece after the fall of the junta, and worked here as a chemical engineer and chess trainer. He is retired now.' -- IM Panayotis Frendzas, close friend and former pupil
During his years of living and playing in Hungary, IM Gesos spelled his name the Hungarian way, as Pavlosz Geszosz.
<sachistu> for these things, the protocol is to drop by the Biographer Bistro and post a request there. Which I did just now. :)
|Apr-06-16|| ||sachistu: Excellent! Thanks <Annie K.> And, of course, thanks to all who contributed to this topic.|
|Apr-06-16|| ||luftforlife: <Annie K.>: Your suggested bio looks great! Thanks for preparing it, and for proposing it in the Bistro.|