< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Jun-05-16|| ||patzer2: If White plays 19. Qb5 (instead of 19. Bc4) then 19...Qa3! (diagram below)|
click for larger view
forces the mate-in-eight 20.Bxf7+ Rxf7 21.Qxb2 Nd3+ 22.Kc2 Qxb2+ 23.Kxd3 Qb5+ 24.Kc2 Qc4+ 25.Kb1 Rb7+ 26.Ka1 Nc3 27.Bxc3 Qxc3# (Deep Fritz 15).
|Jun-05-16|| ||patzer2: <LoveThatJoker: <CG Librarian> Thank you for having corrected the game result from '1-0' to '0-1'!
PS. It should be noted that "16...?" Black to play and win, would not make for a good puzzle because, according to Stockfish, White has 17. Rd1 holding.
"17...?" Black to play and win, however, would make for a good Saturday/Sunday puzzle.>
<CG> Given that 16...Ne4 17. Rd1 = is a spoiler, perhaps it's not too late to make 17...? today's Sunday, Black to move and win puzzle.
|Jun-05-16|| ||Once: Weird week continues with a puzzle that is not really a puzzle. As Patzer2 has pointed out, black can do no more than draw with either 16...Ne4 or 16...Rxd2 (my pick).|
In the game, white goes wrong with 16...Ne4 17. 0-0-0, which walks into a pretty attack. But instead 17. Rd1 and the best black has is Patzer2's draw by repetition.
I suppose we could say that 16...Ne4 is an interesting speculative attack which has good practical merit because it gives white a chance to go wrong. But unless silicon finds something interesting, this one is a bust.
|Jun-05-16|| ||agb2002: I know this game.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||chessgames.com: I just had a late night chat with User: Kev to make sure that this puzzle is correct as 16...?|
He said that it was a brilliancy of Palacios' that he came across while researching the recently deceased Pomar. He was unaware of Stockfish's drawing variation, which if I understand correctly might run something like this:
17.Rd1 c4 18. fxe4 Qxe4 19. Rg1 Ne5 20. Bc3 Nf3+ 21. Kf1 Nh2+ 22. Ke1 Nf3+ 23. Kf1 Nh2+ 24. Ke1 Nf3+ with perpetual
click for larger view
That's a pretty variation. There is obviously much more to say about the position, but I think this means that 16...Ne4!! really is much better than 16...Rxd2 in terms of practical winning chances, (i.e. if you don't have Stockfish by your side.)
Conclusion: 16...Ne4!! is at least in some sense the best move, so the puzzle stands. If you feel cheated, we're sorry; at least we've provided something to talk about.
R.I.P. Arturo Pomar Salamanca
|Jun-05-16|| ||WorstPlayerEver: I think the insane puzzles are good for one's intuition.
I took a look at this one for about 20 seconds and could not sense how to win with Black. My intuition was based on positional grounds; Bishops vs Knights. It's highly instructive how tricky the Knights are though; positionally speaking.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||mel gibson: DR4 64 bit agrees with the text move but calls it a draw:|
17 Ra1-d1 Ne4xd2
Therefore White didn't make the right defense.
|Jun-05-16|| ||morfishine: The Prida Madrid
|Jun-05-16|| ||schachfuchs: Me too, I saw the two options 16...Rxd2 and 16...Ne4, but having looked a bit at 16...Ne4 17.Rd1 without getting any "insane" idea, I quickly go to the solution.
So, I would say the rating "insane" is not correct for 16...Ne4, it's "only" the best "in terms of practical winning chances" as mentioned above.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||King.Arthur.Brazil: I hit very little ... 16 ... NE4 ! OK. I didn't see the fantastic Ne5, I thought about Qf6!, equally I fail to see the move Qa7! but find Qb8, again dind't get Qa8! move. The following I sellect the same moves but these are easy. Today is not a good chess' day for me. Happens...|
|Jun-05-16|| ||BOSTER: The unprotected queen on a7 looks like grapes for black queen-fox e7.
But black knights are too far from invasion in white camp.
"They are probably sour anyway"-said the queen e7.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||Clemens Scheitz: Arturito Pomar passed away just a couple of days ago. I think it would've been a little more respectful to make a puzzle from a game that he actually won.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||YouRang: I looked at today's puzzle, and noticed that white's main threat was to capture the Rb2.|
How to extract it?
16...Ne4! is probably most clever. But 16...Qe5 (guarding Bg2/c3 directly) also looks playable.
|Jun-05-16|| ||YouRang: <Clemens Scheitz> Good point.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||Patriot: I settled on 16...Ne4 but certainly didn't consider all the possibilities such as 17.O-O-O although I did consider 17.O-O.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||BOSTER: The idia with 17...Ne5 even as result of the wrong white play is very nice, and can be used in many games.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||mccarthpm: if pawn take knight and Q takes pawn is white allowed to castle kingside??|
|Jun-05-16|| ||maxi: <mccarthpm> Absolutely.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||OhioChessFan: <mccarth> yes, and that would include Queenside, which is clearly what you were asking, and I'm sure <maxi> figured that out too.|
|Jun-05-16|| ||maxi: <OhioChessFan> What da ya mean, you can castel on that side too?|
|Jun-06-16|| ||stst: Late to game
One possible line:
20.fxe4 (*) Qxe4
24.Qb5 Qf5 (ready to N+ and take Q)
25.Qxc4 (see the bait) Nd3+
26.Kf1 (Ke2, same result) Qxf2#
(*) Of course White may pass this offer, but if so, any move, then Rxd2 is very destructive.
|Jun-06-16|| ||stst: just one minute late, then the next day, then, the original "insane" got really insane, the entire configuration changed,..., hence I didn't see the real solution. it's all weird, even without the castling....|
|Jun-06-16|| ||stst: oh, i got it now.
the original given configuration starts with 19..... but now when the next day, it becomes 16.....
CG needs to be cognizant of such errors/mistakes...
yet I scored the first N-offer. the game went long castle, ok, but then black missed the N-fork for any of the two Rs
eventually i doubt the actual game is really given the "best" solution?! <there were numerous previous examples that even CG itself commented the player missed better moves than those essayed in the actual game.>
|Jun-06-16|| ||Moszkowski012273: It's actually a dead even position after 16...Ne4 17.Rd1...|
|Jun-06-16|| ||Moszkowski012273: Whoops! And thanks for clarifying above Chessgames!|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·