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Mar-05-02 | | A C: I like very this site
congratulations.
best regards
A C |
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Jun-30-05 | | Knight13: Hey! It's okay to kibitz here agai ! COOL!
Morphy's the best Odds-Game player ever! Especially the Maurian vs Morphy games are interesting. |
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Oct-12-05 | | AlexanderMorphy: wasn't that game between sting and kasparov an odds game? |
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Oct-12-05 | | refutor: <wasn't that game between sting and kasparov an odds game?> Kasparov vs Sting, 2000
nope, just a simul |
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Oct-12-05 | | Anatooly Homedepotov: This is exactly where all Odds games need to go---the chess variants page. You're obviously no longer playing chess if you remove a piece or grant your opponent 2 free moves to start. Chernev's book 1,000 Best Short Games of Chess should have been divided into 2 parts: 1)Short Chess Games and 2)Chess Variants: Short Odds Games. |
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Oct-12-05 | | DutchDunce: A couple of variants I think I 'invented' (haven't seen them on Internet yet): Mini-chess. Identical to the 6x6 Los Alamos variant except:
1) The knights on the right side of the board are replaced by bishops (setup is RNQKBR). It is possible for Black to get mated on move two: 1. d3 e4 2. Qf4#.
2) Pawns can move 2 squares on their first move, and e.p. can take place on the square they skipped.
3) Castling is allowed (although in my experience it's usually a bad move). The king only moves ONE square when castling kingside. Wizard chess. Normal setup and moves. After your move, any piece that COULD be captured by ANY of your pieces (if it were still your move), are removed from the board. After such pieces are removed, you may continue to remove pieces in this manner until there are no more possible captures. (Thus landing a rook or queen on your opponent's back rank is like an A-bomb; however, both queens are usually removed by force after a couple of moves.) You are not required to make all possible captures this way. However, you may not remove a piece in your attacking piece's 'line' if it is behind another piece that must be captured first (no 'jumping'). Also, your opponent has the right to insist that you make additional captures if he/she desires. The king is like any other piece. There is no check or checkmate. Castling is allowed if the usual conditions apply, except that the king can move into, through or out of check. Only problem is, I have not figured out what the winning conditions are! Perhaps a material advantage using the usual 9-5-3-3-1 count, that remains static after 50 moves?? |
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Oct-13-05 | | Anatooly Homedepotov: <DutchDunce> Interesting, but tough to visualize. So would a possible Wizard Chess version of Alekhine's Defense go 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5xNf6? I had an idea for making knights more competitive with line pieces by giving them the power to move to any empty square on the board as long as they aren't attacked or attacking anything on the square they "teleport" to. |
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Oct-13-05 | | DutchDunce: <AH> You've got the idea. However, as soon as Black moves Nf6, he/she can remove the e4-pawn since the knight is attacking it. I love your idea of teleporting knights! It would be like playing that old video game Wizard of Wor. |
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Nov-25-05 | | Scan: TURKISH GREATER CHESS
The rules of Turkish Greater Chess, my variant of Turkish Great Chess, differ from the parent game in the following respects; all other rules remain exactly the same. 1) The piece called the giraffe (R+B+N) in the parent game is called a paladin. The two war machines (R+N) in the parent game are called marshalls. The vizir (B+N) in the parent game is called a cardinal. All of the other pieces are named the same and move the same as they do in orthodox chess (king, queen, rook, bishop, knight). 2) A pawn on either player’s second rank may move one, two, or three squares on its first move. A pawn on either player’s third rank may move one or two squares on its first move. A pawn on either player’s fourth rank or beyond moves just one square per turn. 3) There are no pawn captures en passant.
4) A pawn may only promote to a piece that has been lost by its side. 5) A pawn may promote on either player’s eighth, ninth, or tenth rank, at the option of the player owning it. A pawn moving to either player’s tenth rank must promote; if no pieces have been lost by its side, it may not move to the tenth rank, although it still can check an enemy king on that rank. 6) The opening array for White’s first rank is R/M/B/C/Q/K/P/B/M/R. The two knights are placed directly in front of the king and queen on e2 and f2. The opening array for White's second rank is all pawns across the board except for the two knights at e2 and f2. The opening array for White's third rank is 2 pawns placed in front of the knights at e3 and f3. The pawns remain placed exactly the same as in the parent game. Black’s opening array is completely symmetrical to White’s. 7)As in the parent game, castling is not allowed.
8) Stalemate counts as a draw as it does in orthodox chess. PARENT GAME: GREAT CHESS - INDIAN / TURKISH VARIANT
This game is described in an 18th century Indian manuscript. It is mentioned by several authors. Murray describes the game, mentioning its Indian source. Gollon bases his description of the game on Murray, but calls the game Turkish Great Chess. Most authors agree: this is one of the nicest and interesting variants of great chess. Probably the largest disadvantage is the slowness of the pawns. The real age of the game is somewhat hard to estimate, but given the modern type of moves of several pieces, its date of birth should probably placed after the middle ages. The board
The game is played on a ten by ten board (uncheckered?). The opening setup is as follows: White:
King f1; Giraffe e1; Vizir d1; Queen g1; Rook a1, j1; Knight b1, i1; Bishop c1, h1; War machine e2, f2; Pawn a2, b2, c2, d2, e3, f3, g2, h2, i2, j2. Black:
King e10; Giraffe f10; Vizir g10, Queen d10; Rook a10, j10; Knight b10, i10; Bishop c10, h10; War machine e9, f9; Pawn a9, b9, c9, d9, e8, f8, g9, h9, i9, j9. Movement of pieces
Rook, knight, bishop, queen, and king move like in usual chess. (Actually, some of these pieces were named differently in the original game, e.g., the queen was a general, the bishop an elephant.) The giraffe is a powerful piece: it has the combined moves of queen and knight, i.e., of rook, knight and bishop. The vizir has the combined moves of bishop and knight. The war machine (dabbabah) has the combined moves of rook and knight. Pawns move as usual pawns, but have no initial double step. When reaching the last row, pawns promote to queens. Other rules
The player who mates his opponent wins the game. The rules about stalemate are unknown; play e.g. as in orthodox chess. Castling is not possible in this game. |
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Nov-25-05 | | Scan: I like the 10x10 board and the addition of 3 new combined pieces using all the possible combinations of the Rook, Bishop, and Knight. This game would be less of a dry technical exercise and would eliminate memorized opening variations and thus allow for greater creativity and risk taking, hence would be much like the early days of orthodox chess, with room for all sorts of interesting sacrificial ideas. |
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Jan-12-06 | | hidude: Is there losers?
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Jan-24-06 | | Scan: Yes, and winners and drawers too, though I daresay in my incredibly complex variant drawing will be very difficult to come by. Another advantage over orthochess. Orthochess with its relative simplicity will make a fine training game for this one. |
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Feb-10-06 | | popski: What do you think about NeoRandom Chess?
http://wikisophia.org/wiki/User:Igo... |
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Apr-08-06 | | DutchDunce: This one might be an official variant already, but we used to play it in the dorms: SCREEN CHESS
1. Set up a screen in the middle of the board. (between ranks 4-5) 2. Arrange all of your pieces on your side in any fashion you choose. You may put pawns on the back row, bishops on the same color, etc. 3. Lift the screen and begin play as usual.
4. Or, for laughs, SWITCH SIDES so that you are playing the pieces your opponent set up and vice-versa. In this version, you are obviously trying to set up the worst position possible. (Kudos to Jim Bartle for coming up with something simular on the Kamsky v. Anand page.) I'm sure we had to agree on some other rules as well, which I don't remember. Here are some that I would suggest: Pawns may not move 2 spaces or capture EP, and there is no castling. White still moves first unless Black is in check, in which case Black moves first. If one side is in checkmate at the start, they lose. (And they didn't even get to move....) If both sides are in check or checkmate the game is a draw. I guess you could argue that if one side is merely in check and the other is in checkmate, the one in check wins, but to me that is an illegal position. |
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Apr-18-06 | | DutchDunce: <popski> Sounds interesting! It's almost as though the setup phase is a game of its own. |
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May-25-06 | | DeepBlade: Chess variants are always fun
Stack-up chess
First player plays one move, and second player plays 2 moves, and the first plays 3 moves, second 4 and so on! It wil drive you nuts 3 Check chess
The first player to get 3 checks on his scoresheet is the winner! |
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Jun-27-06 | | cuendillar: A simple variant I've played against myself (and worked out a decent body of opening theory!) is the setup BBKNN on a 5x5 board. No double pawn moves and promotion only to RB or N. There is room for interesting combinations in spite of the limited room, ie 1.c3 d3 2.cxb4+ Bxb4 3.a3? Bxd2+! 4.Kxd2 c3+! 5.Nxc3 Nc4+ 6.Kc1 d2+ 7.Kd1 Ndb3# Zugzwang, locked-in pieces and positional piece sacrifices tend to happen often. |
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Oct-20-06 | | gauer: I'm wondering if there is any approximate formula for determining the ELO rating point difference between players who could draw with certain odds (ie P+move, P+2moves, R, N, R+move, N+move, P+2moves for R, etc), assuming that player A could always beat player B without the next highest odds rating, and that B could beat player A with the next lowest odds rating. Also, if we give these handicaps to an engine, is there a book which suggests a repertoire to force a win or draw at odds? I also wonder whether some of the odds games above were such that the handicapped player could only earn any points from a checkmate, and a stalemate/perpetual being a worthless try. |
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Oct-20-06
 | | keypusher: <gauer> Not really. But there is the EDO system that tries to incorporate odds games into its ratings system. See below for an excerpt from the designer: <Odds games
Another difficulty with the early 19th century is the frequency with which matches were played at odds. Whole tournaments were designed with handicaps of various odds for players of different classes, even as late as 1889 or 1890. Jerry Spinrad argues for the inclusion of these results, with an adjustment in the indicated rating difference depending on the odds. Since they were so common in the early period, we have to do something like this or the available results would be too thin to be useful. Hence, I have taken the same approach, though my rating offsets for the various types of odds differ from Spinrad's. He suggested, without justification but as a starting point for discussion, an advantage of 100 rating points when given pawn and move, 200 points when given pawn and two moves, and 300 points when given knight odds. This has the feature that an extra knight makes three times the rating difference of an extra pawn, corresponding to the generally accepted ratio of piece values, if this ratio can simply be translated into ratings.Rather than accept these suggested rating offsets, however, I tried to estimate the effects from the data itself. The idea is that whenever a pair of players played games both at odds and on even terms, the difference in percentage scores can be interpreted as reflecting the difference in rating advantage. This proved difficult, however, as there were few occasions on which the same pair of players played with and without odds, especially in the same year, and sometimes when they did, the results were contrary to what one would expect. For pawn and move there is a reasonable case to be made, especially due to the long matches between Dubois and Wyvill in 1846. They played 81 games on even terms and 69 games in which Wyvill was given pawn and move. The score for the even match suggests that Dubois' rating should be 130 points above Wyvill's. The score for the odds match corresponds to a 46 point lower rating for Dubois, without accounting for the advantage. This suggests a 130+46=176 point effect of the odds. Other situations with fewer games, considered collectively, suggest a similar rating effect for pawn and move, though perhaps slightly less. I adopted a 174 point effect for pawn and move. The comparitive results for pawn and two moves are much scarcer and sometimes contradictory (there is more than one instance of a player doing better when giving pawn and two, than when giving pawn and one to the same opponent). The rating advantage seems to be considerably less than double that of pawn and move. I adopted a value of 217. For knight odds, I have very little to go on, but those comparisons I do have, with some guesswork led me to adopt a 304 point rating advantage. This is not triple the effect of pawn and move, of course, but I don't think that such a ratio is necessarily appropriate. I have so few results for rook odds games that I have no way to assess the effect and so simply excluded them. There are some handicap tournaments in which odds of the move were given, which I take to mean that the player given the odds simply played white in every game. This gives a very minor advantage, that of white over black, which has been estimated by Jeff Sonas to be about 28 points, so I adopt this value as the offset for odds of the move.> Andrew Soltis also wrote a column about an odds tournament he played in, which I'll try to dig up. |
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Oct-21-06
 | | keypusher: <gauer> OK, here is an excerpt from the Soltis column. <Several years ago at the Marshall Chess Club in New York we experimented with odds in a weekend tournament. We used a fast time limit, something like 30 moves in 30 minutes, and a normal Swiss pairing procedure. But whenever two relatively equal players were to meet, the higher rated player was given black, regardless of previous color assignments. If the rating difference was more than 200 points, the higher rated gave pawn and move. If the difference was 400 to 599, he played white but at knight odds; more than 600, he gave a rook. Everyone thought at first that the odds were much too steep. After all, how can an expert be expected to give a rook to a C player? Or a guy rated 1900 give pawn and move to a 1660? But out of some 40 games, the odds giver lost only once. The exception came in the final round on first board, when an underrated A player successfully accepted Grandmaster Arthur Bisguier's rook.> This column was published sometime in the 1980s. Personally I am not at all surprised by the success of the odds-givers. Pawn-and-move with a 300-point rating difference is really nothing. |
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Oct-21-06 | | gauer: I had noticed some Muzio games recently where the odds-giver has played white, instead of the usual black, and hi giving a Queen-knight seems to make for a quicker attack, rather than slower one, due to quick line-opening of the queenside for the rook to develop. Of course, today's player is wise to not allow for such preparation, but some tournaments were also played on additional undocumented conditions that 1 ... e5 (instead of something like 1 ... c5) would automatically answer 1 e4, thereby changing the odds somewhat. I also noticed on the playchess server that they rank their players using a piece-rank system. I wonder how many players playing against a machine the level of Kasparov these days would require pawn and move to draw or better more often than get stuck in lost positions more often at this pace. ie if there are ten or so players play at a King level on the server, and the next 10^2 players play at a Queen level, etc, then could we easily convert at the high levels to the odds-rank system by mere subtraction, in the same way that we would like to do so at the lower levels? Of course, it is hard to turn down the elo performance of an engine much, without going back to running [I don't know if an emulator would have the same effect...] it on a commodore-64. I do, however, hear that causing engines to deliberately play the odd grossly-bad-looking-human-type-blunder, rather than just making any old blunder, is a hard task to build back into an engine. I admit though, that a fair percentage of the blunders I see when fritz is in "drunk mode" do seem to be blunders plausible for a human to spot, due to some tactical or [lesser] some strategic comination. |
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Nov-14-06 | | 2021: Incredibly, there are only 13 draws and if you disinclude the fischerrandom games, there were only 11 draws! |
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Nov-15-06 | | norami: Anyone ever try two-sets chess? The first rank is the same. The second rank repeats the first without the king. Third and fourth ranks are all pawns. Play for mate as in regular chess. A lot of action in that game. |
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Nov-15-06 | | BishopofBlunder: Has anyone ever seen a variant of chess (may not even be called chess) for 4 players? My wife's cousin claims a friend of his developed a game of chess for 4 players, but I have never seen or heard of it. |
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Nov-15-06 | | norami: I have seen it - simply a regular board with extra space on all four sides for the pieces. It's supposed to be a partnership game but chess doesn't work like that. Try bridge. |
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