|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jul-08-06 | | Stevens: <kingkool> <The idea of this fifth move by white is to stop the annoying pin Bg4, and NEXT move play 6. d4 or O-O. What do you think?> at first glance the biggest problem with 5.h3 is that black could play 5...c5 and then prevent d4 for a long time. If your consequent ideas come from the normal positions arriving from d4 then you're stuffed! |
|
| Jul-08-06 | | xKinGKooLx: <Stevens: at first glance the biggest problem with 5.h3 is that black could play 5...c5 and then prevent d4 for a long time. If your consequent ideas come from the normal positions arriving from d4 then you're stuffed!> Yes, but if black does play 5. ...c5 you can then play 6. c3 followed by 7. d4. Don't tell me you can stop 7. d4 now? And as for the "normal positions", the reason I suggested the 5. h3 line is to avoid those positions. After I analysed 5. d4 on Chessmaster, and then analysed 5. h3, the 5. h3 line turned out to be much easier to play as white. |
|
| Jul-08-06 | | themadhair: <xKinGKooLx> In the exchange you are giving up bishop for knight to double black's pawns - in effect leaving only you with chances to create a passed pawn as compensation. By allowing black to get in c5 before your d4 you are giving up that compensation. If you wanted to play such a system they why play BxNc6 in the first place? It make your system more effective. |
|
| Jul-09-06 | | Stevens: <xKinGKooLx> <Don't tell me you can stop 7. d4 now?> well, black can make it difficult if he's determined to stop you playing d4. also, i got confused because it seems d4 is still central to your theme, yet you say the idea was to avoid the "normal" positions resulting from this opening. If you play c3, black can then make it difficult for you to play d4 and then the c3 square is not available for the knight. try it in a few games and see how you get on, it's the best way to tell. black could in theory play 6...Qd3?! after 6.c3 and after the queens come off the white king is in the centre. and after the more natural 6...Nf6 white will have difficulty maintaining the pawn on e4 as well as playing d4. like i said though, until you try in some games it's difficult to know how a real opponent will react. try it, it could work a treat! |
|
| Jul-09-06 | | Stevens: <the 5. h3 line turned out to be much easier to play as white.> this is also a key point. the resulting positions should be positions that you like to play and that you know how to play well, like you said. it's not much good getting a position which is theoretically superior if you're not comfortable with it and not sure how to make the most of it. so if you feel the positions from your move are easier to play, go for it! |
|
| Jul-09-06 | | xKinGKooLx: Thanks for your comments <Stevens> and <themadhair>, but after deeper analysis I found that Black's best move after 5. h3 is in fact 5. ...f5! and after 6. d3 fxe4 7. Nxe5 Nf6 8. O-O Bd6 9. Nc4 O-O, Black appeares to have equalised, but I like the resulting position for White after 5. h3 more than the position after 5. O-O. Maybe my move isn't as good as I thought after all... |
|
| Jul-09-06 | | Stevens: <Maybe my move isn't as good as I thought after all...> hey, like i said, try it out in a few games. unless you play at a very high level, it's unlikely that your opponent will equalise quite so easily. |
|
| Jul-09-06 | | themadhair: <xKinGKooLx> After your 5...f5 I like 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Qe2! Bd6 8.exf5 Bxf5 9.Nxe5 Qe7 10.f4 with ideas of Be3 and 0-0-0. That knight (or pawn if black swaps) on e5 could be a real headache for black. |
|
| Jul-10-06 | | xKinGKooLx: <Stevens: hey, like i said, try it out in a few games. unless you play at a very high level, it's unlikely that your opponent will equalise quite so easily.> Hey Stevens, I tried my 5. h3 out in a game last night and I won! Not that my opponent played perfectly of course! <If you play c3, black can then make it difficult for you to play d4 and then the c3 square is not available for the knight.> Yeah, I realised that c3 followed by d4 in this line is quite bad so I avoided it. <themadhair: After your 5...f5 I like 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Qe2! Bd6 8.exf5 Bxf5 9.Nxe5 Qe7 10.f4 with ideas of Be3 and 0-0-0. That knight (or pawn if black swaps) on e5 could be a real headache for black.> Thanks, themadhair, I'll remember that line, it's very helpful. |
|
| Jul-10-06 | | themadhair: <xKinGKooLx> Even if your pet line isn't the best (and lets be honest - none of us here are qualified to say otherwise with certainty) if you do enough research on it your pet opening can become quite a weapon OTB. As a side note I always had a penchant for the Cozio defence (3.Nge7) against the ruy. Not nearly the best but since it avoids so much theory and is playable it was worth learning it. Really puts an opponent off if they have never seen it. |
|
| Jul-10-06 | | RookFile: Well, it might transpose into this game:
Alberto Mendes vs Jorge Costa, 2001 |
|
| Jan-14-07 | | Brucehump: The endgame with only the pawns as shown in the diagram (and the Kings, of course) is won by White. This is the basic idea of this opening variation. Curiously enough, I've seen an article in a chess magazine from last year 'proving' it is a draw, based on the traditional endgame books. This was the mistake, as many times in this opening the trick to wining the endgame is moving f5 before e5, which goes against Capablanca's wisdom of "Candidate first". There is an opening book about the Spanish Exchange that in the first chapter shows how the pawn endgame is won. |
|
| Jan-14-07 | | ganstaman: <Brucehump: The endgame with only the pawns as shown in the diagram (and the Kings, of course) is won by White.> Without saying this is true or not, I have issue with the 'of course.' It is not obvious to me that the doubled d-pawns for black is enough to make it a clear win for white. Just to be clear, this is the position, probably with white to move: 
click for larger viewIs the position right, and has it actually been proven to be a forced win for white? |
|
| Jan-14-07 | | ganstaman: Ah, just read this: <There is an opening book about the Spanish Exchange that in the first chapter shows how the pawn endgame is won.> Which book, and can anyone reproduce some of the analysis or give a summary? |
|
| Jan-14-07 | | nescio: <ganstaman> I don't have a book with an analysis, but I'll try to explain. First, it is not your diagram position that is often cited as winning for White, but rather this one:
click for larger viewwhich you can imagine to be reached by 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Bxc6 dxc6 5.d4 exd4 6.Qxd4 Qxd4 7.Nxd4 and subsequent exchanging all the pieces but the pawns. The winning plan has three stages:
1. Bring the king to the centre
2. Put forward the pawns at the kingside
3. Create a passed pawn
The defending plan includes the following:
1. Bring the king in the centre
2. Play actively on the queenside to make problems there for White. Example:
1.Ke2 Ke7 2.Ke3 Ke6 3.f4 c5 4.c4 c6 (4...b5 5.b3!) 5.a4 b5 6.b3 f6 7.a5 b4 8.g4 g5?! (desperation) 9.e5! gxf4 (9...fxe5 10.fxg5) 10.Kxf4 fxe5+ 11.Ke4 (still with a majority on the right wing, which will serve to occupy the black king, while the white king gains access to the queenside) 11...h6 12.h4 Kf6 13.g5+ hxg5 14.hxg5 Kxg5 15.Kxe5 Kg4 16.Kd6 Kf4 17.Kxc6 Ke4 18.Kxc5 Kd3 19.Kxb4 and White wins easily. Hope this example makes it a bit clearer. |
|
| Jan-14-07 | | ganstaman: <nescio> Thanks, that does look good. I guess the issue with this opening just being a simply win for white is that 1) getting all the pieces exchanged off without allowing black to either alter the pawn structure or advance his king already is near impossible and 2) as above, white often castles (?) so that his king isn't as centralized as in the ideal position. So then, is it really interesting even that the position without pawns is a win for white? He can't achieve that position anyway, right? Or is it that it puts the onus on black to really do something before allowing any more big exchanges? Out of curiosity, how is this position evaluated (white to play)?
click for larger view |
|
| Jan-14-07 | | nescio: <ganstaman> Games with this opening aren't a simple win for White. In fact, I don't think White is better, but Black has to play very actively with his two bishops to overcome the disadvantage of the pawn structure. That's the reason Lasker gave for using this opening as a weapon against opponents who wanted to draw. Playing passively for a draw is just not feasible. As for the White king not being in the centre after castling, it needs only one extra move to reach e2 from g1 than from e1, so I don't think that is an important difference. |
|
| Jun-23-07 | | Bridgeburner: <ganstaman>
I ran my engine for 24 ply on your starting position sans pieces, and it rates the position as equal. The top five lines presented at that level of ply were 1. = (0.15): 1.e4 e5 2.Ke2 g5 3.Ke3 c5 4.g3 Ke7
2. = (0.14): 1.d4 b5 2.Kd2 d5
3. = (0.12): 1.g4 e5 2.e4 b5 3.h4 Ke7 4.d3 Kd6 5.Kd2 f6 6.c4 4. = (0.12): 1.b4 d6 2.e4 c5 3.b5 g5 4.Ke2 h5 5.Ke3 e5 6.a4 a6 7.g3 Ke7 8.b6 Ke6 5. = (0.11): 1.f4 d5 2.d4 Kd7 3.Kd2 Ke6 4.Ke3 b5 5.g4 a5 6.h4 f5 7.g5 h6 These are lower initial evaluation than with all the pieces on the board. I ended up on this page trying to work out why Gligoric never seemed to have played the Gligoric Variation. I am assured by <Caissanist> and <brankat> that the Gligoric Variation is characterised by Black's 5...f6 rather than by White's 6.d4 (after 5.0-0). Gligoric has played 5...f6 more than any other top player. |
|
| Oct-07-07 | | Bob726: After exd4 Nxd4 c5, Is it better for white to retreat to e3 or b3? The stats are way better for e2 but b3 seems better to me ( Attacks c5, eyes a5 then what the knight is doing on e2 |
|
Dec-29-07
 | | Open Defence: I better not catch you around here <technical draw> |
|
| Dec-29-07 | | technical draw: <OD> Well if you can be here so can I. And I see that white wins 30.9 % to 22.5%. Good start. Also Fischer played and won with it. Now I'm no Fischer but I once saw a picture of him. |
|
| Dec-29-07 | | RookFile: Black does have the two bishops. Rubinstein, who knew more about the endgame than just about anybody, would happily take the black side of these Ruy Lopez exchange variations, and win. |
|
| Feb-12-10 | | suenteus po 147: Does anyone have the complete score (or know where to find it) for Martinovic-Vukovic, 1977 1-0 from Smederevska Palanka? I have a partial gamescore following this position:
click for larger view1...c5 2.Ke2 b5 3.c4 Rd6 4.f4 g6 5.g4 b4 6.Re5 Kc6 7.Re7 Rd4 8.Ke3 Rd1 9.Rxh7 Ra1 10.f5 gxf5 11.g5 Rxa2 12.g6 Rg2 13.g7 1-0 |
|
| Jan-07-12 | | optimal play: An opponent once played the unsual 6.d3!? which I thought was kind of passive, yet proved quiet effective. Even the cg database reflects some success in recent years for this line. btw there seems to be some confusion as to the correct ECO for 6.d3
Some online ECO Codes databases define C69 at 5.O-O others at 5...f6 and still others not until 6.d4 Should 6.d3 be classified as C68 because chessgames.com seems to have these games under C69. |
|
| Oct-20-15 | | zanzibar: <Optimal Play> SCID gives C69 after 5...f6. Which, fwiw, strikes me as the correct place to "fork" the ECO codes, since it gives the game a different character thereafter. BTW - in <CG>'s Opening Explorer, there are no "notable" Black wins after 5...f6. Which strikes me as somewhat biased - <CG> really can't find a single win by Black which might be considered "notable"?! |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
