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Jan-18-05 | | Abaduba: Perhaps Nemeth is a chess-computer slayer? He only plays computers and his results are pretty good against the best programs in the world. |
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Jan-18-05 | | Gregor Samsa Mendel: <Abaduba>--Read the following (an article that has been mentioned before on chessgames.com):
http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/chess2/... |
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Jan-18-05 | | BlazingArrow56: Just look at those scores! Oh but wait!! Didn't you hear? Kasparov was beat by Deep Blue so computers are better at chess than humans now. As if. |
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Jan-18-05 | | Marvol: It's a pity the database only covers 2000-2001.
Obviously it would be interesting to see him beat the crap out of any newer program out there, on newer hardware.A noble task for ChessGames: Update his game collection? |
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Jan-18-05 | | TheAussiePatzer: I tried emulating this guy's style once and it isn't quite as easy as he makes it look. |
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Jan-18-05 | | mj29479: www.beepworld.de/members37/computerschach this is the link i got after google search for Eduard Nemeth, Chessgames.com pls check if this is the right person and, i also saw a photo of a bearded person if it is him you can use that here :) |
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Jan-18-05 | | TheAussiePatzer: I seriously doubt his chances in a full match against say, fritz on the best hardware today. But, his games are interesting and I thank him for them. |
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Jan-18-05
 | | chessgames.com: We were able to locate this game E Nemeth vs Deep Fritz, 2004 from the link that mj29479 provided. If anybody has other games by Nemeth we'd be happy to include them. |
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Jan-18-05 | | cuendillar: I found a 103 games .pgn-file on that page, is it possible to submit all at once? |
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Jan-18-05 | | kbob4435: Unlike Texas No-Limit Hold-Em Poker where I don't think computers will ever dominate given the lack of information present in unseen cards and the many strange and devious illogical moves that human players can device, all of the information is present on the chess board. There is nothing for the computer's brute computational strength to not see. The fact that Nemeth, for his strength at 2100+, literally destroys far superior-rated computers is phenomenal. It's akin to a human daring a car to a foot race and figuring out a way to win the race. Fantastic Herr Nemeth!! |
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Jan-18-05 | | AgentRgent: What most people don't understand, and Nemeth does, is that Computers do EXACTLY what you tell them to. Humans can try to play chess against a computer, but computers don't play chess, they try to find positions that, according to it's programmers, are better than others. Fritz doesn't know a good position from a hole in it's motherboard, it only knows what it's programmers have said is a good position. Nemeth doesn't play "chess" against the computer, he plays to exploit flaws in the design, and he's exceptionally good at it. |
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Jan-18-05 | | Willem Wallekers: <Texas No-Limit Hold-Em Poker>
May I ask you to reveal the rules of this game? |
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Jan-18-05 | | Hidden Skillz: the way he used the h and a squares is incredible.. |
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Feb-22-05 | | Granite: Texas No-Limit Hold-Em Poker is a finite game therefore has a best possible play for each possible hand. It's simply based on probabilities due to the random nature of card games unlike chess which actually has a complete solution assuming best play from both sides. So computers would always be better then humans at Texas Hold-Em even if they didn't always win. Moreso because it's a card game their is much less variety then in chess and I'm confident a maximal solution could be found and used by normal desktop PCs while chess is still a long way from being solved. I feel this fellow exploits the fact that computers are in general material focused and he often sacs several pawns of pieces simply to develop an attack more quickly. It's basically a diversion tactic that leads the computer into making unsound moves. Very clever way to exploit the mechanics of computer engines that wouldn't neccesarily work against humans. |
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Mar-25-05 | | shortsight: it simply shows that computer won't be able to withstand Tal, if he's still here today. |
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Mar-25-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: <cg.com> How come you didn't include any of Nemeth's wins over Junior from Krabbe's site? |
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Jun-26-05 | | Knight13: How the heck is he beating thoes GM level Chess Engines when his rating is under 2200!? He's not even a master! They're even for Grandmasters to beat! Geez. I think he knows theses "anti-computer" style or something. |
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Jun-26-05 | | farrooj: <knight 13>
yes, he uses an anti-computer style (a closed position I think) and a gambit that he invented called the Nemeth gambit.The Nemeth gambit only works on computers because Nemeth knows how comps are programmed and exploits the weaknesses in the programming you can check this link :
http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/chess2/...
(it's already posted above)
:) |
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Jul-22-05 | | Caissanist: Is there any possibility of a Hydra-Nemeth match? That would be something to see. |
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Jul-22-05 | | refutor: why would it be something to see? see nemeth get wiped many-few? or have him play a million games against it, win a handful and post them on the web ;) |
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Jul-22-05 | | korger: I find the link you refer to above a very biased survey, contrived to justify its author's obvious disfavor towards computers. Like stupidity, human vanity knows no limits either. Computers screwed up the first three games shown in the article due to obvious programming errors, which are easy to correct anyway. You won't find a state-of-the-art engine with a proper database making errors like those, so they prove nothing. As for the next 10 Nemeth and one Krabbé games, I wonder how many hundreds of games they had played before they could come up with those 11 won. Reminds me of my own collection, as I have a tendency to save only my won games against the machine (oh, and I even tamper with the settings in my favor, otherwise I'd get toasted all the time), but at least I don't put a loud fanfare behind it and upload it to my web page in defense of humanity. The whole point of that article is ridiculous anyway. Who needs to defend humanity's honor against machines? Computers were created for the very purpose to solve and excel at problems that are impossible, or just too tedious to humans! Will this guy also write a page defending sprinters against racing cars? Ehh. Computers have been around for a while, and played numerous matches against humans, losing many in the beginning, but they were always better at sportsmanship. Never heard of a comp making stupid excuses to cover for its losses, or going into raptures over its victories, two things that some humans tend to do an awful lot. I don't care if computers are better at chess, but they seem to be better also at some virtues that are supposed to be inherently human--and that's what's humiliating to us. <a Hydra-Nemeth match? That would be something to see.> Sure. Seeing Hydra crush and devour a 2100-something player under proper match circumstances, now that would be a sight for those who have a lust for blood. Like in the old times, when famished wild animals massacred unarmed slaves in the amphitheaters. Panem et circenses! |
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Jul-22-05 | | Brown: <Computers have been around for a while, and played numerous matches against humans, losing many in the beginning, but they were always better at sportsmanship. Never heard of a comp making stupid excuses to cover for its losses, or going into raptures over its victories, two things that some humans tend to do an awful lot. I don't care if computers are better at chess, but they seem to be better also at some virtues that are supposed to be inherently human--and that's what's humiliating to us.> Computer's developed super-egos when I wasn't looking. |
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Jul-22-05 | | Caissanist: Call me naive, but I honestly think that Nemeth would score better in a match than Adams did and, depending on what the ground rules were, might well win.
The reason is that he is approaching this not as a chess match or even a reverse engineering job, but as a software quality assurance (QA) problem--i.e., he's looking for bugs. I've been in the softare biz for twenty years now, and I've seen two constants--at every company the QA people always know more than anyone else about the product and how it works, and they never get the time or resources to do their job properly. Except for the very simplest ones, there's not a software program out there that doesn't have significant bugs and design flaws that a savvy QA engineer (or hacker) could find. I would love to see Nemeth, or someone like him, make Hydra look silly. I'd like to see this not so much because of anything to do with chess, but because it would be a fine publicity stunt to highlight the sloppiness and bugginess of virtually all commercial software. Maybe this would be the nudge that would force the software industry to implement the kind of quality standards that are taken for granted with most other products. OK, yeah, that IS naive. I have more chance of convincing Christina Aguilera to marry me and have my babies than I (or Nemeth) have of convincing the software industry to build reliable products. Still, it would be fun to see a hyped-up media event that highlighted just how shoddy this stuff can be. Which, I believe, is where I came in :-). |
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Jul-23-05 | | korger: <Caissanist: there's not a software program out there that doesn't have significant bugs and design flaws that a savvy QA engineer (or hacker) could find.> That's true, but for a reasonably well-written program all of the design/programming faults manifest themselves through the improper use of the product. For instance, in the UNIX world the most common examples are the infamous buffer overflow exploits. (I deliberately avoid talking about Windows-related problems, as that is a huge design flaw on its own, rather than a software.) For someone who is communicating with a program through a chess interface, able to make only legal moves, the possibilities for exploits you are talking about are practically eliminated. The only thing Nemeth--or any chessplayer for that matter--can do is to find shortcomings of the algorithm--and those aren't the same as errors in the code which hackers would exploit. Turning the shortcomings to your advantage may enable you to beat programs which are nominally 2-300 ELO points higher than you, but the enormous 700+ points gap between Hydra and Nemeth is just too big. No way. <it would be a fine publicity stunt to highlight the sloppiness and bugginess of virtually all commercial software.> Then your best hope is that during the next Hydra-Human match a hacker cracks the mainframe via Internet, and makes the computer play imbecile moves, or just resign in a won position. I agree, that would be a good demonstration about buggy software--but this has nothing to do with the playing strength of Hydra, so long as everyone plays according to the rules. <I have more chance of convincing Christina Aguilera to marry me and have my babies> There, you've taken the words out of my mouth. Not only you have better chances of a beautiful marriage, but that will give you undoubtedly more happiness than seeing the IT industry collapse and writhe in pain if its faults should be revealed. So even if the latter never happens--don't worry, this life offers you plenty of much nicer things! :) |
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Jul-23-05 | | moocow: <Turning the shortcomings to your advantage may enable you to beat programs which are nominally 2-300 ELO points higher than you, but the enormous 700+ points gap between Hydra and Nemeth is just too big. No way.
>
Fritz, Shredder etc are only 300 ELO better than Nemeth? I think not. Obviously Nemeth was playing around with these programs to come up with the techniques he's found and he would probably need a fair time playing around with Hydra to if he was to discover anything, but I don't think we can totally discount the possibility. Check this out for absurdity http://f27.parsimony.net/forum67838... What I think is disappointing is that GMs who have obviously much more knowledge than Nemeth have not been able to come up with an equivalent of his chess lateral thinking, but on a GM level. Let's face it, one of his early ideas (the g5/g4 piece sac to open the h-file) is hardly sophisticated and the concept should be known to any club player with a decent knowledge of the exchange Lopez. Of course, I guess GMs have better things to than find amusing conceptual failures in chess programs ;-) |
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