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WCC Editing Project
Member since Jul-19-13 · Last seen Aug-24-24
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   WCC Editing Project has kibitzed 3286 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Jun-07-15 Biographer Bistro (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <zanzibar: Since I'm an adviser to editors, rather than an editor, I'm unfamiliar with what exactly editors can do.> I want to bring this post to your attention again: Biographer Bistro (kibitz #10966) It explains what editors can do and what not.
 
   May-31-15 chessgames.com chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <chessgames.com> Maybe you overlooked this post Biographer Bistro (kibitz #11028) , since the Bistro has become rather fast-paced. An answer would be interesting to several people.
 
   May-29-15 WCC Editing Project chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Chessical> Thank you very much for your contribution(s)! We hope that you will support us in the future, also. For sure, you have helped us quite a lot already. The draft in question is already finished and was send away, though. It is still a valuable source and
 
   Apr-01-15 Moscow (1925) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Capablanca> on his experience at <Moscow 1925>: <"Although very philosophical, very observant and completely dispassionate in my judgment about everything concerning chess and its great exponents, I was nonetheless <<<unable to ...
 
   Mar-08-15 Tabanus chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: Ribli - Torre Candidates Quarterfinal (1983) Audiovisual aid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8G...
 
   Mar-08-15 Alekhine - Bogoljubov World Championship Match (1929) (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <beatgiant> In case you want to read further on this topic, I have prepared a sourced timeline that summarizes the <Alekhine-Capablanca> rematch negotiations from 26 Feb 1929 - March 1935: Game Collection: WCC: Alekhine-Bogoljubov 1934 ARCHIVE
 
   Jan-29-15 suenteus po 147 chessforum (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <One Third of the original "Big Three"> I beg your pardon! I'm on vacation in Canada, and I just now saw your post in the WCC forum. By "we" I meant the cg.com biographers, not the WCC project. All of the research compiled for additions to your intro was done by ...
 
   Nov-23-14 R Fuchs vs Tal, 1969 (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <MC Scarlett> If so, very very quietly...
 
   Nov-19-14 Alexander Alekhine (replies)
 
WCC Editing Project: <Karpova> Thanks for the correction! That sum makes more sense now in conjunction with the report on the organizers' losses. Good heavens- they can't have made much on ticket sales.
 
   Nov-17-14 E Walther vs Tal, 1966
 
WCC Editing Project: Queen trap Trick or Treat- this game was played on Halloween, 1966.
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

WCC Editing Project

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 98 OF 127 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-20-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Esteamed Clams>

Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951

Ok the first paragraph has been rewritten and the new notes have been put in.

Ready for more editing, as clams see fit.

Apr-20-14  Boomie: <perfidious>

Let me be the first to wish you goodbye and gulag.

Apr-21-14  Boomie: -

In "The Most Dangerous Match", a GM playing for the world championship murders his opponent. Columbo meets him and tries to knock him off balance in his meddlesome way. "Hi. You must be the champion. I have a cousin up in Albany with big, thick glasses and he admires you very much."

Heh. Can't get enough of Columbo no matter how many times I've seen them.

Apr-21-14  Boomie: <Who Chews Clams? Ready for more editing, as clams see fit.>

We'll put our best foot forward and filter the text for tasty morsels.

Apr-21-14  Karpova: On Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951

"Although his subsequent results were solid, the Soviet Chess Federation did not yet award him the grandmaster title.<5> FIDE still invited him with six other Soviets to the Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948).<6>"

This now sounds a bit strange, as you would expect the Soviet grandmaster title to be reserved for exceptional results. But here he didn't get it, although his results were <solid> - as a reader I wouldn't expect <solid> results to be enough to earn a Soviet grandmaster title anyway. It even makes it appear as if FIDE's standards for Interzonals were lower than the Soviets' for their GM titles.

I think that the crucial point is that with <solid results>, the reader lacks a point of reference. When I suggested <solid> and <good>, I didn't believe these expressions to be synonymous. To me it seems that Bronstein did become one of the strongest Soviet chessplayers and so FIDE was correct in inviting him as one of the Soviet representatives. However, as he had had his best results against foreigners and weaker Soviet chessplayers, with about solid results against his stronger Soviet adversaries, so he had not been awarded the Soviet grandmaster title yet.

Is there some assessment of his playing strength during this in between period, i. e. between the USSR championship 1945 and Saltsjöbaden 1948, which could be cited? Something where it is made clear that he entered the Soviet top ten of chessplayers? His invitation to Saltsjöbaden seems to have been justified, even though he wasn't a Soviet GM yet. So maybe we could transport this information. That his results had been good, but not exceptional, but he had established himself enough to be one of the seven best Soviet chessplayers. So far, the only hint we get is that six other Soviets were also invited to Saltsjöbaden, so that Bronstein was not the sole non-GM in a small group of Soviets, but it was a larger delegation.

Apr-21-14  Boomie: <Karpova>

Bronstein had a couple of outstanding results which I guess influenced FIDE's selection.

Moscow (Championship), 1946

http://www.chessmetrics.com/cm/CM2/...

Moscow-Prague, 1946

http://www.chessmetrics.com/cm/CM2/...

He also had a good result in Moscow (URS Championship), 1948, but that may have happened after FIDE made its decision.

Apr-21-14  Karpova: <Boomie>

thanks. I was aware of that as <Jess> gave his results in the mirror. And we should keep in mind the general readership aimed at with these drafts - it's not enough if only the draft writers and critics understand it.

The point is that <solid> results do not sound too impressive. So the conclusion <Although his subsequent results were solid, the Soviet Chess Federation did not yet award him the grandmaster title.> reminds me a bit of the <not yet WC challenger> despite 15th place at the 1944 USSR Championship in an earlier draft version.

Here, the vagueness rather confuses the reader, especially as no information on the team events is given. If he always played first board, a <solid> result against the Najdorfs and Reshevskys of our world would have been very good. But he played on lower boards mainly. The Prague 1946 match seems to have been a Scheveningen type-tournament, with all the Moscow players playing the Prague players - http://www.olimpbase.org/other/resu... -so I'm not sure about the practical signficance of Bronstein playing first board. And the smaller Championships like Moscow 1946 are not even mentioned.

<Jess>, I think you were closer to the right track with this earlier version <This earned him a spot on the lower boards of Soviet team events, where he performed well. He further progressed in smaller events with good results, but his performance against the best Soviet opposition was not yet strong enough to attain the grandmaster title.>

Apr-21-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

Bronstein's 1947 results rather do characterize him as a "not yet WCC challenger." His results during and after the interzonal characterize him as the "man to beat." He left no doubt in these years that if you wanted to get to Botvinnik, you'd have to go through him first.

All I mean to say is that his performances against top Soviet opposition in 1947 would not have pegged him as the favorite at the Saltsjöbaden Interzonal (1948).

It should be kept in mind, though, that you don't need to be a "rising WCC challenger" or the "the event favorite" to get invited to an interzonal tournament. Plenty of "not yet WCC challengers" get invited to interzonals. FIDE invited seven Soviets to Saltsjöbaden, and despite his 1947 performances there's no doubt from his overall record that <Bronstein>, though only a master, certainly deserved one of those seven spots.

All that said, I really don't think we are in disagreement on this point.

I'll rework this sentence back into the draft then:

<This earned him a spot on the lower boards of Soviet team events, where he performed well. He further progressed in smaller events with good results, but his performance against the best Soviet opposition was not yet strong enough to attain the grandmaster title.>

#########################

This is what I came up with, and what is now in the mirror:

"He improved to 3d in the USSR Championship (1945), which earned him a spot on the lower boards in Soviet team events, where he performed well.<4> He further progressed in smaller events with good results, such as winning two Moscow championships in a row. But his performance against the best Soviet opposition was not yet strong enough to attain the grandmaster title.<5>

Apr-21-14  Karpova: <Jess>

The new version looks fine now and makes the development much clearer to the reader.

Anticipating a possible objection, I would suggest to add a source after

"He further progressed in smaller events with good results, such as winning two Moscow championships in a row."

Apr-21-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

Heh...

Good thinking. I'll just do that then.

Apr-21-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova, Klams>

I added a provisional <4a> source for the two Moscow championships- I'll change all of the notes tomorrow when I'm more awake.

But look at the <25th Moscow Champinship 1946> http://al20102007.narod.ru/ch_repub..., and look at this game from that event: Bronstein vs Smyslov, 1946

I was already aware of these results from from Game Collection: Smyslov's Tournaments and Matches 1935-1979 and Game Collection: Smyslov at the 25th Moscow Championship, but now that we're concentrating on <Bronstein>, it just struck me that <Smyslov> was invited to the FIDE World Championship Tournament (1948) two years later.

To quote <Tabanus>: Hmm

Apr-21-14  Karpova: <Jess>

You're the expert on Smyslov, but I would guess that he had other good results in more important tournaments also, e. g. Groningen (1946), making it obvious that he had established himself among the best players. It may have been stranger if he hadn't been invited due to a City Championship. Although, in case of Moscow, that City Championship had a stronger line-up than several National Championships.

Apr-21-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project:

Yes, it had a very strong lineup to be sure: http://al20102007.narod.ru/ch_repub...

Apr-22-14  Karpova: FIDE World Championship Tournament (1948) seems to be finished now, with crosstable in the text and footnote 23 corrected.
Apr-22-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

Thanks for the update- this is most excellent news.

I will send Daniel a thank you email.

I won't submit Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951 until this Sunday.

I am superbusy at work right now. Also, I want to check each and every note to make sure there are no reference mistakes.

The Soviet will have more time to examine the first paragraph and all other portions of our draft.

Apr-22-14  Karpova: Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951

"David Bronstein was born in Belaya Tserkov, Ukraine in 1924."

Is the correct name of the city not rather <Bila Tserkva>?

"3, David Hooper and Kenneth Whyld, "The Oxford Companion to Chess, 2d Edition" (Oxford University Press, 1996), p.60"

Remove comma after 3.

Apr-22-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Karpova>

Excellent, thank you.

I also just put the correct English spelling of "Bila Tserkva" in the David Bronstein bio as well.

Bila Tserkva: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bila_T...

Apr-22-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <Four years later he qualified for the USSR Championship (1944),>

I still want the comma after "later".

I definitely approve of "He improved to 3d in the USSR Championship (1945), which earned him a spot on the lower boards in Soviet team events, where he performed well.<4> He further progressed in smaller events with good results, such as winning two Moscow championships in a row. But his performance against the best Soviet opposition was not yet strong enough to attain the grandmaster title.<5>"

Apr-22-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  SwitchingQuylthulg: <Eddie> Belaya Tserkov is the Russian spelling (or its English transliteration, at any rate). I wondered about it earlier, but figured you had a source that used the Russian version and wanted to copy that; of course, with no source being actually cited... :)
Apr-22-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Switching Sources>

Well I made the mistake of not even bothering to "source" it from a typically unsourced Cg.com bio.

Luckily I can source it to this handy Ukrainian Wikipedia article on Дави́д Ио́нович Бронште́йн:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91...

Apr-22-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: <Ohio>

<<Four years later he qualified for the USSR Championship (1944),> I still want the comma after "later">

We'll have to wait on <Tim> for the resolution of this, and all other, comma, matters.

We are lucky to have two commaunists in the same soviet, I have to say.

Apr-22-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  WCC Editing Project: Good heavens...

I just went over the "61k" limit on Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951.

In a previous email, Daniel told me this could result in the destruction of the collection!

It didn't.

I divided it in half. Here is the other half: Game Collection: WCC Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951 Appendix

You can still find the mirror draft where it was before: Game Collection: WCC: Botvinnik-Bronstein 1951

Apr-22-14  Boomie: <Wiki Chickie Chavie:

<<Four years later he qualified for the USSR Championship (1944),>

I still want the comma after "later">

The Comma Sutra stands mute on this issue. Either way works for me.

All hail Groucho Marx and John Lenin.

Apr-22-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  SwitchingQuylthulg: <WCC Editing Project: <Switching Sources>

Well I made the mistake of not even bothering to "source" it from a typically unsourced Cg.com bio.

Luckily I can source it to this handy Ukrainian Wikipedia article on Дави́д Ио́нович Бронште́йн:

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91...>

Firstly, I thought you didn't think much of using Wikipedia as a source. Secondly, that's the Russian Wikipedia - with the Russian spelling that goes with it.

Apr-22-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <Cariboumie: The Comma Sutra stands mute on this issue. Either way works for me.>

Devoted Soviet Commanist admits it's okay either way with a gentle preference for.

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