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Garry Kasparov vs Veselin Topalov
"Kasparov's Immortal" (game of the day Apr-13-13)
It (cat.17), Wijk aan Zee (Netherlands) (1999)  ·  Pirc Defense: General (B06)  ·  1-0
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Given 90 times; par: 59 [what's this?]

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Premium Chessgames Member
  Rookiepawn: sharpnova: I think the problem is not <SS> hating stats, but you loving them so much to the point of believing they say more than they actually say.

Chess strength is always relative, relative to that of other players I mean. So when you talk about "strength" you always talk about a relative measure.

In practical terms, a chess player may theoretically show a clear dominancy over a certain period, and then losing that dominancy over the next period despite playing better chess.

This means the player has objectively improved his/her chess, from an absoulte point of view he/she is <stronger> than before. But if the rest of the players improved more, then from a relative point of view the player is <weaker> than before.

So stats are great, but they must be read carefully.

Dec-14-14  Sally Simpson: Hi sharpnova,

I disagree that the statistics on chessmatrics are important and should be viewed with a very jaundiced eye. As I said, alright as a curiosity but nothing more.

So this makes me a religious nut! (I was wondering how long it would take before the insults started.)

It appears to be you who religously believes in these serioulsy flawed numbers. I am a grading/rating athiest.

You are trying to convert me.

Dec-14-14  thegoodanarchist: <Sally Simpson: ...

So this makes me a religious nut! (I was wondering how long it would take before the insults started.)>

Too bad that no one ever takes it as a compliment.

Dec-14-14  Sally Simpson: 'Nut' I'll take as a compliment. I am nuts.

But not religious. (They are the real crazy ones.)

Chessmatrics includes games that did use clocks. Chessmatrics uses games that had adjournments. There are mistakes in recording who won games. Known thrown games are in there. pre game agreed draws are in there.

One v one matches should be not be included in any rating system (sorry Bob).

The whole lot are mixed up and rolled out in an effort to turn games of chess into a number.

It's full of chaotic data.

Nobody should take it seriously.

Dec-17-14  KeyanChess: Very beautiful game. 24. Rxd4!!! was so shocking and brilliant, it looked like a blatant error when I first saw the move! Topalov played a great game as well, but Kasparov prevailed by finding and making brilliant moves one after another.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Rookiepawn: <SS> made a good point about another potential weak point of stats: data quality. You should believe in stats as strongly as in their data quality. Stats are really tricky.
Jan-16-15  Poulsen: <Rookiepawn><Stats are really tricky>

You are off course right: stats ARE tricky - not only because of data quality (a point Jeff Sonas' Chessmetrics is well aware of), but also because of the way stats are or can be used and interpreted.

For example <sharpnova> in his above arguements CHOOSES to use Kasparov's peak performance at Tilburg 1989 to argue, that around this time Kasparov was strongest. This victory (among others) leads to a rating of 2885 on the april 1990 ratinglist - according to Chessmetric.

However in may 1993 Kasparov goes to 2886 - following his performance at Linares - and in june 1999 Kasparov reaches 2884 - once again following a great performance at Linares.

These 3 peaks are visible on the graph shown on Chessmetrics, but over all Kasparov is clearly the no. 1 player throughout the 90'es and beyond - with Anand, Karpov and Kramnik as the closest contenders.

Thus - contrary to what <sharpnova> believes - I don't think, that Chessmetrics supports the claim, that he was stronger in 1990 than in other periods.

To compare: Bent Larsen's peak performance came at Buenos Aires 1979 at a point when his career had long been in decline.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Kinghunt: What a long way engines have come. At d=25, Stockfish has 24. Rxd4 as its first choice move. (It considers black better due to the response 24...Kb6!)

Stockfish cannot, however, find 27. b4+, for whatever reason, at least not at d=29. However, as soon as I set PV=2, it finds it and picks it as clearly best almost instantly. Must be some weird super aggressive pruning going on. (Stockfish actually believes itself to be losing until b4 is found/forced.)

Premium Chessgames Member
  Kinghunt: I take back the second part of my previous comment. I was using the old version of Stockfish before. I just installed Stockfish 6, and it finds 27. b4+ at d=24 (~5 seconds).
Mar-19-15  islam tolba: Kasparov declared by himself that " the game is considered the best chess game ever played " .
Mar-19-15  Howard: Someday I'll have to get a computer....
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: I enjoyed playing through this game the first time. The second time I got bored halfway through and put Carry On Doctor on.
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: < offramp: I enjoyed playing through this game the first time. The second time I got bored halfway through and put Carry On Doctor on.>

If a man is tired of this game he is tired of life.

Mar-19-15  Baron Harkonnen: <If a man is tired of this game he is tired of life.>

What about a man who believes in the M61MG book?

Premium Chessgames Member
  Alex Schindler: The comment about finding it strange for kasparov to play this gem in 1999 rather than 1990 "at his statistical peak" was certainly weird, and certainly not because Garry's gut says his peak was in 1999.

Its weird because elo takes victories, losses, and draws as its sole input. Creativity and beauty are completely unquantifiable, or at any rate no one has made an attempt to quantify them for the sabrematricians of chess. Moreover, whether a game was a massacre, a narrow victory, the result of opponents' extreme blunders, a product of time pressure or tournament circumstances, a slow positional dance or a hyperkinetic tactical melee - this all goes completely outside the algorithm.

So the thought that Garry's highest statistical likelihood of winning a game against a given opponent would have been nine years earlier is unbelievably irrelevant to the quality of this or any other game. To think otherwise isn't just a religious attitude toward statistics, it's an innumerate one.

Premium Chessgames Member
  kingscrusher: My latest video annotation for this amazing game - one of the greatest games ever played:

Apr-18-15  narayase: Why not 20... Qd6?

After 31 Qf6 Rd1+, 32 Kb2, Qd4+ forces Queen exchange and black's position becomes stronger. I don't see anything immortal in this game.

Jun-20-15  Mfrankpsyd: After 31... Rd1 32. Kb2 Qd4+ 33. Qxd4 Rxd4 34. Rxf7 White has mate threats (Be6 followed by Bb3 or Rf6) and also passed pawns on both sides compensating favorably for the exchange. You don't see what's immortal about this game?!? Beauty is immortal.
Jun-21-15  narayase: Hi

Dont feel offended. I am a chess enthusiast and have studied hundreds of games with extraordinary combinations and this is one such interesting game.

After 34 Rxf7 Rd6 can prevent both Be6 and Rxf7 and still the game is on for Black with twin rooks.

Jun-23-15  posoo: now dis - DIS - is a classic example of da debate of chesse. SALLTY SIMPSON says dat da kasp sac is SOUD bc it WON. And she is rite!

I have no time for people of shurpnovus's ilk, who swallow the ribbons of Rubka with da zeal of a happy lrge fellow with a donut!

Chess shod NOT be about computers and it' nice dat kaspo strate ROLLED da tupluv with his INTUIOTION and not his cupoter.

Lol da thing of it is dat shurpolio couldn't beat kuspo with ROOKE ODS and a dump.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Reisswolf: This is obviously Kasparov's immortal, but it also featured great calculation by Topalov. He calculated the sequences after 24. Rxd4 very well. I believe the move that he missed was 37. Rd7.
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: <Reisswolf: This is obviously Kasparov's immortal...> You're entitled to your opinion. I quickly grew fed up of this game. Kasparov has played many more games that are more interesting than this, Kasparov vs Kramnik, 1994 for example.
Jun-23-15  FairyPromotion: <offramp> After gladly agreeing with you on the Karjakin-Anand game, I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Kasparov has played many amazing games, and 6 of them are possible candidates for (my personal) top 100 games of all time, that win vs Kramnik included. But I would say that there is a clear seperation between this game, which I would rank as top 5, and the other 5 that I wouldn't put in my top 30.

The win vs Kramnik features a great journey by the h pawn, and is exceptional as a whole, however the final move by Kramnik is a huge let down. On the other hand sequence between 24. Rxd4!! and 37. Rd7!! in this game applies heavy gravitation on my jaw, no matter how many times I've played it over.

Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: <FairyPromotion>, I do understand your concept. But I dislike games where "one player plays, the other sits and applauds". I like games where both players play very well. I think Topalov was playing like a shill in this game.
Jul-07-15  Albion 1959: Kaspowerov !! This is an amazing game to play through. The lines are profoundly deep and mind blowing !! This must surely be one of Kasparov's best ever games ? Was this brilliant deep tactical calculation ? Or was this something more intuitive ? This must have been sheer instinct with a gut feeling that something "must" be there for white ! However, in the final analysis everything just seems to work for Kasparov. Not even Fischer at his peak produced games like this !
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Kasparov on Kasparov: Part I
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