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Sep-03-04
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| InspiredByMorphy: According to the book - Morphy's games of chess by Philip W. Sergeant - This game does not exist. Deacons name is not listed in the index of Morphy's opponents on pages 348-349. |
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| Sep-03-04 |
| SBC: <InspiredByMorphy>
<According to the book - Morphy's games of chess by Philip W. Sergeant - This game does not exist.> Morphy's Games of Chess wasn't designed to be an exhaustive collection and only contains 300 of Morphy's games. So exclusion doesn't necessarily mean nonexistance. This games does exist, but Morphy didn't have any part in it. Sergeant doesn't deal with this affair at all as far as I can remember. |
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| Sep-03-04 |
| sneaky pete: Sergeant has a chapter (contributed by B.Goulding Brown) on the Deacon games in "The Unknown Morphy", the 1973 Dover reprint of "Morphy Gleanings" (1932). Morphy vs F Deacon, 1859 was published in The Illustrated London News, February 18, 1860 as a game between Arnous de Riviere and Deacon. AdR didn't recognize this game as played by him, as he had done with the alleged Morphy vs Deacon Evans published in the ILN December 17, 1859. This leads Goulding Brown to surmise Deacon mixed up two games (identical up to move 9). Goulding Brown then reasons, that if Deacon supplied an Evans lost against AdR as lost against Morphy, he might have given a second Evans lost against Morphy as lost against AdR. In conclusion, he presents the game AdR vs Deacon (as published in February, 1860 and included in this database as played by Morphy) as a POSSIBLE genuine Morphy game. This also means, that of the 2 games published by Staunton as Morphy vs Deacon, only the King's gambit is included in this database, not the Evans gambit, which explains how some sources can give 3 M vs D games. |
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| Sep-03-04 |
| SBC: <sneaky pete>
Well, if we discount Goulding Brown's somewhat questionable reputation in his dealings with Morphy, and if we discount Steinitz's later assertions that Deacon tried a similar hoax on him, this is perhaps the reason why Lawson spent an entire chapter on something so patently false. When everything else is discounted, common sense alone is enough to refute both Deacon's claims and Brown's defense. Suppose for a minute that you played a game against Garry Kasparov, not in a simul but 1 on 1. Suppose you won this game. Would you wait a year and a half before telling anyone?? And then, when you finally told someone, would you confuse the score of the game?? |
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| Sep-03-04 |
| sneaky pete: <SBC> I'm blissfully unaware of GB's reputation, I just gave a summary of what I found in Sergeant's other book that for thing explains how there can be even 3 Deacon games elsewhere. You don't have to convince me of anything, I've included both games found on this site in my collection <The dirty dozen>. |
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| Sep-03-04 |
| SBC: <sneaky pete>
I'm sorry. I just wrote what I thinking without much concern how it might sound. I'm aware of some of Brown's other contributions where Morphy is concerned and each one I've read strikes me as selective argumentation - that is, to prove his point rather than to find the ultimate truth. So, my reply wasn't so much to convince you, or anyone else, of anything, but to keep what would, and should, be considered an authoritative source from carrying too much weight. In other words, I was trying to show that there's two sides to the coin. Also, I should have thanked you for taking the time to research this. Any good source material is genuinely appreciated even if, maybe especially if, it's possibly controversial in itself. If enough such posts are made on this or any page, the sum of the information should give any interested reader good insight into areas that they may have never encountered elsewhere or by their own initiative. |
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| Mar-13-05 |
| RookFile: I agree that 9.... f5 is a ridiculous
move for a player like Morphy
to have made, and the move itself
is the best evidence possible that
Morphy is telling the truth. |
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| Mar-13-05 |
| crankydoodle: The day when Morphy becomes this pawn-centric is Armageddon. |
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| May-06-05 |
| soberknight: For all his skulduggery, the winner of this contrived game should be called a "Demon Deacon." |
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| May-14-05 |
| ArturoRivera: i didnt like f5?, any comments about that move? |
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| Jul-05-06 |
| RookFile: With Morphy, development always came first. ...f5 is akin to pouring gasoline on your position, instead of developing your men. The move itself is in my mind the best possible evidence to believe Morphy when he says this game is a total fake. |
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| Aug-02-07 |
| Judah: From the article that <tamar> links to above: <There is a man in England who has a very unfortunate name.
We have known three persons named Church, and they were all great rascals. If a man’s name is Priest or Parson or Elder, you may safely set him down as an undesirable acquaintance. And if a man goes by the name of Deacon, take care that he does not commit a forgery upon you. Now, this man in England is named Deacon, and the name, presumably, has ruined him....> Ironically, the article is written by Nick Pope. |
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Aug-02-07
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| Calli: <ironically, the article is written by Nick Pope.> No, the author is unknown. Nick Pope merely reprints an article from the "The Spirit of the Times". No words were written by him. |
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| Aug-02-07 |
| Judah: Ah, thanks for the correction, Calli. Still ironic, but less so. |
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Aug-03-07
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| Calli: Pope posted an article about Deacon. That could be called a coincidence, I suppose, but it is not ironic. |
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| Aug-03-07 |
| Judah: Pope posted an article decrying Deacon on (humorous) grounds that apply to Pope himself even more than to Deacon. It's true that Pope didn't write the article, but his publishing it is still slightly ironic, in my opinion. |
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Aug-03-07
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| Calli: Irony is when the opposites (or at least incongruent things) exist within the same context or result. There is no irony in a person named Pope discussing a man named Deacon. Chess has a piece called a "Bishop". Does the inclusion of a Bishop in Chess make our discussion on Chessgames of an article by Pope on Deacon ironic? No, its just coincidence that there are clerical names involved. Example:
They left the city to get away from it all. Ironically, they found the campground full and crowded with people. Sorry to be a stickler on this, but I find the word is often misused today. I think it started with that popular song of a few years ago. There wasn't even one ironic situation mentioned by the singer. |
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| Aug-03-07 |
| Judah: Calli, I have no problem with your being a stickler for correct use of language. I also tend to be a stickler for such things, but in this case I believe that I used the word correctly. You say there is no irony in a man named Pope discussing a man named Deacon. I agree with that, but there <is> irony in a Pope saying with regard to a Deacon that the more clerical a name is, the more rascally the man is. (As you correctly pointed out, Nick Pope didn't actually say those words, but he did publish them.) |
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| Aug-03-07 |
| posoo: hohoho, callus looks like a fool. IRONIIK |
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Aug-03-07
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| Calli: Nick Pope merely presents a long lost article as information. I, for one, am not willing to make an assumption that he thinks that men with clerical names are rascals. |
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Aug-03-07
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| spin: I'm going to have to agree with <Judah> here. Regarding <Calli>'s last post, "I, for one, am not willing to make an assumption that he thinks that men with clerical names are rascals." - Whether he is even aware that this is mentioned in the article doesn't have anything to do with whether it's ironic. |
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Aug-03-07
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| spin: Maybe this is a stretch, but to put it in context of "incongruent things happening", you could consider it in the following manner: A man named Pope posts an article for strictly informative purposes. Within that article, it makes mention of the fact that men with names such as Priest, Parson, etc. shouldn't be trusted, thus resulting in him indirectly telling people that he shouldn't be trusted. Seems incongruent enough for me to consider it ironic. |
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Aug-03-07
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| Calli: Its the very essence of irony that you act or believe in one direction and it turns out that the reality is the opposite. There has to be those two parts. Nick Pope lacks the first part. He states no opinion and has no expected result (other than the passive - posting information). Therefore, there is no irony. Of course, he is aware of what the article said. He would not be surprised that his name was Pope nor that the article described clerical names derogatorily. Having lived with his last name, he has heard all the jokes. One can read the definitions of irony here and see that this instance fits none:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictiona... Have nothing more to say about it. This may be irony to you, but to me its another its another silly CG pun type of joke. Deacon, Pope - ha-ha |
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Aug-03-07
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| spin: argh... I started to compose a lengthy counterargument using a definition from your link, etc, etc. and then I was reminded of a joke (something about arguing on internet message boards and special olympics)... Agree to disagree... |
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| Aug-03-07 |
| Judah: Yes, <act (or believe) in one direction>, and to me, the act of disseminating an article which warns the reader about men with clerical names is enough of an act to make it ironic that the one who disseminates it is a man with a clerical name. He doesn't have to be unaware of this for it to be irony. Of course it would be more ironic if he had written the article himself. There's room to differ--I can see why you don't consider this ironic--but we both know what irony is. I'm happy to leave it at that. |
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